Starting a pedigree flock

[Toby Rochester]

Hello, I am looking to get a pedigree flock of north country cheviots set up. My goal is to show the sheep and produce good salable rams and ewes my question here is how exactly does one go about establishing the flock and registering them under my own herd name etc and what general advise does everyone have. Thanks in advance

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Hello, I am looking to get a pedigree flock of north country cheviots set up. My goal is to show the sheep and produce good salable rams and ewes my question here is how exactly does one go about establishing the flock and registering them under my own herd name etc and what general advise does everyone have. Thanks in advance

Probably best to make contact with the breed society, they should be able to help

 

[Toby Rochester]

Probably best to make contact with the breed society, they should be able to help

Thanks ill do that

 

[BAF]

If you want functional saleable rams that farmers want to buy you might want to avoid the showing route. Farmers want long lived, hardy , fertile rams that don't need feeding or looking after they don't care if its won best NCC in a dress or been pole dancing champion at the Royal Welsh. If you want to breed fancy pedigree show sheep then you need to hope you have the right name, a face that fits and deep pockets to pay the feed bills.

 

[Guiggs]

If you want functional saleable rams that farmers want to buy you might want to avoid the showing route. Farmers want long lived, hardy , fertile rams that don't need feeding or looking after they don't care if its won best NCC in a dress or been pole dancing champion at the Royal Welsh. If you want to breed fancy pedigree show sheep then you need to hope you have the right name, a face that fits and deep pockets to pay the feed bills.

Unfortunately a lot of farmers only say they want functional rams but then consistently spend good money on overfed monsters that melt away and invariably die leaving little to show for their brief time in the flock.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

If you want functional saleable rams that farmers want to buy you might want to avoid the showing route. Farmers want long lived, hardy , fertile rams that don't need feeding or looking after they don't care if its won best NCC in a dress or been pole dancing champion at the Royal Welsh. If you want to breed fancy pedigree show sheep then you need to hope you have the right name, a face that fits and deep pockets to pay the feed bills.

But bear in mind that there's still a lot of farmers looking to waste money on show rams, so take your pick.

 

[Hilly]

What kind of cheviots ? Park type hill type or south type ?

 

[Highland Mule]

Unfortunately a lot of farmers only say they want functional rams but then consistently spend good money on overfed monsters that melt away and invariably die leaving little to show for their brief time in the flock.

It’s not always easy to tell the difference between a fed tup of poor genetics and a unfed one of good. It’s understandable that some would go down the route of buying the show style.

 

[ringi]

It’s not always easy to tell the difference between a fed tup of poor genetics and a unfed one of good. It’s understandable that some would go down the route of buying the show style.

Hence I question why anyone would be a ram that is not performance recorded and at least at Signet Siver standard unless using on very small flock.

 

[JockCroft]

Hence I question why anyone would be a ram that is not performance recorded and at least at Signet Siver standard unless using on very small flock.

What all characteristics does "Signet Silver" measure? Not come across it.

(EDIT) Did a bit of googling and that is standard EBV's.
Problem with that I have found is they don't seem to look at Teeth or Feet.

Tup that cant eat right or walk right should not be put forward for sale.
For me a Tup must have straight teeth, close toes and not lame, good wool cover (Texel Breeders take note) and then lets see length, giggot and rib muscle. I also take temperament into consideration.

By the way in a Butcher's dept (admittedly a tourist trap) Boned Rib eye of Lamb is over £20 per kg.

 

[Jrp221]

Buy the best foundation stock you can afford. Buy fewer better ones. Don’t buy a bad trait (teeth, crap legs etc) those traits will be guaranteed to throw through.

 

[ringi]

What all characteristics does "Signet Silver" measure? Not come across it.

(EDIT) Did a bit of googling and that is standard EBV's.
Problem with that I have found is they don't seem to look at Teeth or Feet.

"Signet Silver" is the top 25% of proformance recorded rams for the attributes that make up the index. This gives a large number of rams to select from for good teeth and feet etc while excluding the rams that are large only due to lots of cake. Eg use the EBVs to exclude the worce for growth rate etc, then ignore the EBVs while selecting from what remains.

There are no EBVs for teeth and feet as good breeders tend to cull hard, and when you cull there is not enough data to calculate EBVs. Also to calculate EBV it ideally needs a scale with at least 5 points and about the same number of sheep in a flock given each relative grade.

 

[Highland Mule]

"Signet Silver" is the top 25% of proformance recorded rams for the attributes that make up the index. This gives a large number of rams to select from for good teeth and feet etc while excluding the rams that are large only due to lots of cake. Eg use the EBVs to exclude the worce for growth rate etc, then ignore the EBVs while selecting from what remains.

I know very few breeders that cite Signet or any EBVs. If I were to screen on that to help selection I would remove 90%+ of potential sellers.

 

[ringi]

That totally depends on the breed, performances recording is not yet common for hill breeds.

 

[Highland Mule]

That totally depends on the breed, performances recording is not yet common for hill breeds.

No, that’s across all breeds and sellers in my local area.

 

[Woolless]

What all characteristics does "Signet Silver" measure? Not come across it.

(EDIT) Did a bit of googling and that is standard EBV's.
Problem with that I have found is they don't seem to look at Teeth or Feet.

Tup that cant eat right or walk right should not be put forward for sale.
For me a Tup must have straight teeth, close toes and not lame, good wool cover (Texel Breeders take note) and then lets see length, giggot and rib muscle. I also take temperament into consideration.

By the way in a Butcher's dept (admittedly a tourist trap) Boned Rib eye of Lamb is over £20 per kg.

Performance figures best used for traits that can't be assessed by eye. Teeth, feet and locomotion should be a relatively easy call for the breeder to cull his sale stock on. Having said that, what will be a flat 'no' for one buyer might be completely ignored by another. I had one buyer ask if I had any with one ball that he could buy cheap!

 

[Woolless]

No, that’s across all breeds and sellers in my local area.

I was at the 'Ram Rampage' at UA Stirling last October. No EBVs to view anywhere, plenty of feeding obvious and a few tups that sounded as if they were about to breathe their last!

 

[Rich_ard]

Performance figures best used for traits that can't be assessed by eye. Teeth, feet and locomotion should be a relatively easy call for the breeder to cull his sale stock on. Having said that, what will be a flat 'no' for one buyer might be completely ignored by another. I had one buyer ask if I had any with one ball that he could buy cheap!

My kind of guy. I once went to see a bull. I got there it was real quiet and I thought I'd check it's balls. Not something I normally do but as I could get close I did. 1 ball !! Didn't buy it. I might have if I'd known beforehand for a few cows but I thought probably not the best thing to do.

 

[JockCroft]

"Signet Silver" is the top 25% of proformance recorded rams for the attributes that make up the index. This gives a large number of rams to select from for good teeth and feet etc while excluding the rams that are large only due to lots of cake. Eg use the EBVs to exclude the worce for growth rate etc, then ignore the EBVs while selecting from what remains.

There are no EBVs for teeth and feet as good breeders tend to cull hard, and when you cull there is not enough data to calculate EBVs. Also to calculate EBV it ideally needs a scale with at least 5 points and about the same number of sheep in a flock given each relative grade.

Cull. I think most of us will say "We Wish".

To be serious, the theory of EBV is good and can be a guide to a breeders stock and give a guide in general. But it is to easy to be blinded by it.

As my own observation from too many years in sheep, many breeds seem to me to have lost rib eye bulk. Been trying to find photos I have of bare clipped Park NCC from the early 70's. They were definately squarer along the the back, a better chop as it was then.

Market requirements change and breeds alter to suit. In recent years however most major breeds seem to be following what the pedigree breeders want, drifting a bit from what commercial flocks need.

What goes around comes around. Bet in five years they may be putting out the type of sheep we want, only by then the market will have changed.

 

[Woolless]

Cull. I think most of us will say "We Wish".

To be serious, the theory of EBV is good and can be a guide to a breeders stock and give a guide in general. But it is to easy to be blinded by it.

As my own observation from too many years in sheep, many breeds seem to me to have lost rib eye bulk. Been trying to find photos I have of bare clipped Park NCC from the early 70's. They were definately squarer along the the back, a better chop as it was then.

Market requirements change and breeds alter to suit. In recent years however most major breeds seem to be following what the pedigree breeders want, drifting a bit from what commercial flocks need.

What goes around comes around. Bet in five years they may be putting out the type of sheep we want, only by then the market will have changed.

Eye muscle is a difficult thing to assess by hand and eye, even in a carcase. Gigot is easy, so that's what's been pushed for. A tup with a high muscle depth EBV is what you want. This is assessed by an ultrasound scan which measures fat and muscle depth across the loin.