THE DECLINE IN THE UKS NATIONAL SHEEP AND CATTLE HERD SIZE?

[bluebell]

a thread on here about the halal slaughter of sheep on here, and saying that without the muslim community buying the price of sheep would have a serious effect on the price? Got me thinking, i wondered what the total numbers of sheep and cattle are now and what they were , have they gone up or down, one things certain the UKs population since 2000 has increased by , official figures by just over 4 million extra people, well according to nat. statistics the UKs cattle population has declined by almost 5 million since 1974, the sheep numbers for the UK stood at 44 million in 1992, now fallen by 5.5 million up to 2018, makes for some very grime reading?

 

[kfpben]

More productive cattle and sheep though...not sure about the people!

 

[goatfarmer]

Probably will decline more after the BPS goes, sheep and cattle that is not humans!!

 

[Agrivator]

More productive cattle and sheep though...not sure about the people!

Cattle are certainly more productive than 30 years ago. But I would guess that sheep productivity, and the standard of sheep husbandry, has fallen significantly in the last 30 years. Just ask any market (aged) drover, haulier, vet, or respected livestock farmer.

And all retired shepherds will have very strong views about today's farmers trying to do their own shepherding.

 

[kfpben]

Cattle are certainly more productive than 30 years ago. But I would guess that sheep productivity, and the standard of sheep husbandry, has fallen significantly in the last 30 years. Just ask any market (aged) drover, haulier, vet, or respected livestock farmer.

And all retired shepherds will have very strong views about today's farmers trying to do their own shepherding.

I find retired people always look back to ‘the good old days’- whether they were better or not!

 

[Woolless]

Cattle are certainly more productive than 30 years ago. But I would guess that sheep productivity, and the standard of sheep husbandry, has fallen significantly in the last 30 years. Just ask any market (aged) drover, haulier, vet, or respected livestock farmer.

And all retired shepherds will have very strong views about today's farmers trying to do their own shepherding.

Does the fact that those shepherds are retired tell you all you need to know?

 

[@dlm]

I agree with both above posts, natural stock skills i would be adamant have diminished as @Agrivator says, but also as @kfpben says retired people remember how good things were, maybe with rose tinted glasses, but whilst i can buy into it, they maybe right and lost fewer lambs, had less lameness etc, but i would be very surprised if on the whole they weaned as many kilo of lamb to the acre as modern years. Which obviously in due course would create more losses and lameness with many of the so called improved genetics of weight gain and carcass yield forgoing other factors, certainly 15 to 20 years ago maybe less so now. I would bet there would be a huge increase of beef kg and lamb kg produced per staffing unit than what was produced in 1974!!!

 

[@dlm]

An extra reply came in from @Woolless that threw my above 2 posts comment!!

 

[kfpben]

Vastly more chickens I imagine. White meat is the standard meat for most now, beef or lamb for a treat.

 

[Woolless]

Scottish meat wholesalers are constantly crying about shortage of stock. Fair enough but get your chequebook out if you want more, lads!

 

[bluebell]

so where have all those millions of acres gone that supported those numbers of cattle and sheep ?

 

[John Chance]

It's not numbers that matter; its productivity and efficiency.

 

[AndrewM]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/873137/structure-livestockpop-uk-19mar20.xls

Here is the government data

 

[matthew]

so where have all those millions of acres gone that supported those numbers of cattle and sheep ?

Concrete.
Houses.
Motorways.
Leisure facilities.
Forestry.
and now - Re Wilding - or whatever that particular group is calling itself today.

 

[kfpben]

Concrete.
Houses.
Motorways.
Leisure facilities.
Forestry.
and now - Re Wilding - or whatever that particular group is calling itself today.

Also lower stocking densities in the Uplands, more arable in the Lowlands

 

[Top Tip.]

An effect of this lower stocking is being seen this year with the price of hay. There used to be a big trade in hay east to west but there simply isn’t the cows to eat all the hay that has been made this year hence the collapse in price.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

I find retired people always look back to ‘the good old days’- whether they were better or not!

As my great grandad and grandad both said "the only good thing about the old days is they've gone!"

 

[Anymulewilldo]

so where have all those millions of acres gone that supported those numbers of cattle and sheep ?

More arable in the lowlands plus development will affect it.
I think the major change will have been in the uplands. The original figures were when we were on quotas and paid to stock everything too the max. Plenty of unscrupulous hill shepherds ran a couple of hundred wethers up on the moor for the wool and sub claim. They all got counted in the national ewe flock. Then we got F&M in 2001, that cleared thousands out. Couple that with the aging farmers and the change in CAP direction to environmental schemes based on payment/hectare the stock never returned in its full strength. When I head for the highlands for store lambs I can never get over how few sheep there are past Glasgow. The hills used too be covered in them. Now it's "we will pay you to only put 200 ewes where your dad ran 1200" so the srub starts growing and the FC plant a great ruck up with Spruce. You don't notice the lack of stock so much on the good land. But head up into the hills and you soon notice a shortage.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Just been talking about this with the old fella. He says the stockmanship thing is a bit of a funny one. He reckons that a lot of the things they used to do years ago were for prides sake. Because they had time to muck about and do it. Nowadays to make a living out of stock without relying on subs you have too run that many head that you haven't time for the pride aspect too the same degree as the previous generation. You just do all the essential things to keep them well and healthy and get on with the next lot and are proud of them in a different way. Production wise he's just shown me our lamb weigh tickets going back too 1984. Over the years our home bred lambs have gone from 34-36kg up to 39-44kg. And we are weaning 1.7- 1.75 whereas back then if he weaned 1.4 he thought it was alright. (We aren't a rich lowland farm so our ewes have to work hard)
His dad always bought nice scotch halfbred ewe lambs and ran then to shearlings before tupping them. Took immense pride in how his shearlibgs looked. Grandad hated the big gormless brutal things that dropped the lambs and legged it. When he got too 15 he turned the Suffolk tip in with the ewe lambs. Great grandad never accepted it was right but did concede that the shearlings were much more bidable after that plus his lamb output/ year went up. But he never admitted outright that tupping ewe lambs was acceptable.

 

[bluebell]

my view , give me numbers any day over productivity? what ive tried to illustrate is 30 - 40 years ago we had sales ,need ,demand, etc for 5.5 million more sheep, and 5 million more cattle than today ? yet population has grown ? the massive decline in cattle, sheep has had an effect in numerous service industries from hauliers to vets, markets, feed merchants etc etc ?