The Folly of Embryo Transfers

[Agrivator]

An article in the Scottish Farmer, by a well-respected beef and sheep pedigree breeder, suggests that embryo transfers might be doing a great disservice to the industry.

Many of the breeds flushed, have distocia problems, and their embryos are placed in recipients of breeds with far fewer problems. In fact, some individuals which are flushed would rather not be put in calf or lamb, because they are too valuable to lose during birth or expensive caesarean operations.

A prime example in sheep is where Texel embryos are transferred to older easier lambing breeds like the Mule or Suffolk crosses. Would you want to buy a tup lamb bred by that method, and should pedigree sales provide details of how such a tup or bull has been produced?

 

[neilo]

There's no problem with the process of Embryo Transfer, just some of the selection decisions made for donor ewes. Someone was telling me a year or so ago, when I enquired about a ewe that I had been underbidder on, that her pelvis was so small they couldn't get a lamb out and had to have a CS. As they couldn't lamb her, they had proceeded to flush her instead.

I flush a few ewes every year, and have done for most of the last 2 decades. It's a useful tool to expand superior female lines but, like performance recording, it's just a tool. Tools can be used badly.

The two pedigree breeds that I've been involved with, Charollais and Beltex, certainly have the fact that they are ET bred on their pedigree certificates. I assumed they all did?

 

[M-J-G]

From those who I speak to in the business say theevels of this happening in the Lim and BB Breeds are getting out of hand.
But I guess if they are targeting mainly extreme terminal types the calving ability well decrease.
Like the beltex

 

[Macsky]

I was at a pedigree texel breeders place about a decade ago, and he had a rake of great looking lambs running about the shed, the only problem was that more than a couple of them had come out the side door of a mule! madness.

 

[M-J-G]

I was at a pedigree texel breeders place about a decade ago, and he had a rake of great looking lambs running about the shed, the only problem was that more than a couple of them had come out the side door of a mule! madness.

Yes, that's what us Brits do best, take something functional and wreck it.

 

[Werzle]

I have thought the same lately about pedigree cattle breeders and all the cesareans, to my mind its becoming a welfare issue . Why an earth do we want all these cattle bred that have to come out of the side door. It will be as bad as the bulldog type breeds that cannot give birth naturally anymore

 

[shearerlad]

I do agree with you, but with regards limmys thst were where mentioned, at society sales the catalogue says for each animal if it’s been natural or artificial conception and also natural or ET gestation
Then it’s up to the buyers to make their own decisions

 

[gatepost]

As a tool to increase a good females blood within a flock/herd great, but lets be clear that is not what it is being used for now necessarily, it is used to produce offspring with enhanced breed points and it enables the recipient to be fed in such a way that it will milk like hell and carry a large lamb/calf, therefore getting the extra size on going for sales, so be it if that floats your boat, but I think we are seeing those bloodlines now becoming dominant and some weak maternal lines are being multiplied up by default, I for one will not buy an embryo if I can, at all help it, and have specifically looked for the offspring of old ewes, and the results are starting to come through, but is anyone really interested, I am yet to see it.

 

[glensman]

I've always wondered if E.T is responsible for the prevalence of mastitis in the texel/mule. How many" great" texel ewes that have taken mastitis in their first breeding season have been flushed for years afterwards?

 

[neilo]

I've always wondered if E.T is responsible for the prevalence of mastitis in the texel/mule. How many" great" texel ewes that have taken mastitis in their first breeding season have been flushed for years afterwards?

ET can be used to multiply poor traits, just the same as it can good ones. The procedure isn’t the problem, the selection of donors is.

It’s just a tool, that’s all.

 

[gatepost]

I've always wondered if E.T is responsible for the prevalence of mastitis in the texel/mule. How many" great" texel ewes that have taken mastitis in their first breeding season have been flushed for years afterwards?

Oh I think ''great ewes'' never get to rear a lamb, and if you question it, the answer usually is, well it's the way its done now.

 

[gwi1890]

I've always wondered if E.T is responsible for the prevalence of mastitis in the texel/mule. How many" great" texel ewes that have taken mastitis in their first breeding season have been flushed for years afterwards?

It probably is, I know a breeder who uses E.T on older ewes only ewes who have performed well throughout their lives and reared high litters and have good udders its they way it should be done, but many flush ewes lambs then sell as yearlings! As long as fools are willing to part with money which they always will it’s going to continue unfortunately

 

[Bob the beef]

I sometimes get asked to steward the texel classes at a fairly big show. The ewe class every year causes a real stoosie. In the show rules it states that the ewe must have reared a lamb in that season. ( the show is early July). Last few years there have been over 20 ewes entered in the class and no more than 5/6 have clearly reared a lamb. As steward I was originally told that we had to dismiss the ewes that had not reared anything. Cue major strop from many very well known breeders, who threatened to boycott the show in future. Now any ewe can take part in the class and everyone turns a blind eye to the fact.

It’s no wonder the texel breed is having such problems with mastitis and difficult lambings

 

[sheepwise]

If you look at the Lanark texel catalogue there will be more than 500 of the 600 tup lambs are ET born.
Have flushed a few ourselves over the years and as Neilo says as long as it is used responsibly then it is a useful tool but in some breeds it is getting out of hand.

 

[neilo]

It probably is, I know a breeder who uses E.T on older ewes only ewes who have performed well throughout their lives and reared high litters and have good udders its they way it should be done, but many flush ewes lambs then sell as yearlings! As long as fools are willing to part with money which they always will it’s going to continue unfortunately

Wasn’t the 350k Texel lamb back in the summer the result of a ewe lamb flush?

I generally only flush proven ewes, but occasionally younger ones from those same bloodlines too.
I confess that I do have a ewe lamb being flushed at the moment though, the result of flushing one of those proven ewes last year (by a homebred ram), the highest index Charollais to date and everything I could wish for in a Charollais. A great believer in Sod’s law, I’m flushing her as insurance, as I’m sure she’ll keel over without leaving me lambs otherwise.

 

[MDL POWERUP]

Wasn’t the 350k Texel lamb back in the summer the result of a ewe lamb flush?

I generally only flush proven ewes, but occasionally younger ones from those same bloodlines too.
I confess that I do have a ewe lamb being flushed at the moment though, the result of flushing one of those proven ewes last year (by a homebred ram), the highest index Charollais to date and everything I could wish for in a Charollais. A great believer in Sod’s law, I’m flushing her as insurance, as I’m sure she’ll keel over without leaving me lambs otherwise.

If she keels over without leaving a lamb is she worth breeding from?

 

[gwi1890]

Wasn’t the 350k Texel lamb back in the summer the result of a ewe lamb flush?

I generally only flush proven ewes, but occasionally younger ones from those same bloodlines too.
I confess that I do have a ewe lamb being flushed at the moment though, the result of flushing one of those proven ewes last year (by a homebred ram), the highest index Charollais to date and everything I could wish for in a Charollais. A great believer in Sod’s law, I’m flushing her as insurance, as I’m sure she’ll keel over without leaving me lambs otherwise.

yes he was out of a ewe lamb, and he was also in the top 1% this it not a knock on the lamb by any means but Im unsure how the recording can be accurate/fair across the breed, for 8 week weight, scan weight, ease of lambing and litters reared/size? muscle depth and fat CT scanning is fair game though
Should ET lambs figures be penalised in some way ?

 

[egbert]

Wow. just wow.
About as far away from my way of farming as it could be.
I'm fine with Neil Os rationale*.
Even fine if it means getting more tup lambs from a particular line for sale.
But that a breeder would multiply up something with functionality issues.....?

I can only shake my head in disbelief.
What kind of muppets would buy from men who'd do such? How do the sellers keep their secrets?
It's pressing the self destruct button.

If a ewe needs foot doctoring she gets a 'never keep a tup from this'un' mark in her ear.
C section? Jeez Louise...she's outa here.


*I only dropped in to look cos I was talking to a pal whose looking at ET on her coos.
Having had a catastrophic neospora outbreak, she's got to cull almost everything.
but apparently ET is fine, and breaks the cycle, so that's what she's looking at...flushing 1-2 favourite cows....which makes sense to me.

 

[M-J-G]

I've always wondered if E.T is responsible for the prevalence of mastitis in the texel/mule. How many" great" texel ewes that have taken mastitis in their first breeding season have been flushed for years afterwards?

Don't forget the number of ETs done on Leicesters
Have you seen how many BFL lambs are born from mules?

 

[glensman]

Don't forget the number of ETs done on Leicesters
Have you seen how many BFL lambs are born from mules?

Could be a double whammy