The Folly of Embryo Transfers

[neilo]

yes he was out of a ewe lamb, and he was also in the top 1% this it not a knock on the lamb by any means but Im unsure how the recording can be accurate/fair across the breed, for 8 week weight, scan weight, ease of lambing and litters reared/size? muscle depth and fat CT scanning is fair game though
Should ET lambs figures be penalised in some way ?

ET lambs aren’t penalised in BLUP just for being born by ET, but they are treated as a separate contemporary group, in the same way that singles are treated separately to triplets, etc. The performance of relatives, born by ET or otherwise, all feed into their ebvs too.

I’m confident enough in most of the ebvs generated for ET animals, apart from 8wk/maternal ebvs, especially where there have been several generations of ET bred/recipient reared ancestors.

 

[neilo]

Wow. just wow.
About as far away from my way of farming as it could be.
I'm fine with Neil Os rationale*.
Even fine if it means getting more tup lambs from a particular line for sale.
But that a breeder would multiply up something with functionality issues.....?

I can only shake my head in disbelief.
What kind of muppets would buy from men who'd do such? How do the sellers keep their secrets?
It's pressing the self destruct button.

If a ewe needs foot doctoring she gets a 'never keep a tup from this'un' mark in her ear.
C section? Jeez Louise...she's outa here.


*I only dropped in to look cos I was talking to a pal whose looking at ET on her coos.
Having had a catastrophic neospora outbreak, she's got to cull almost everything.
but apparently ET is fine, and breaks the cycle, so that's what she's looking at...flushing 1-2 favourite cows....which makes sense to me.

Absolutely agree that selection for functionality is imperative, regardless of the breeding method used. To flush something that couldn’t breed naturally clearly just perpetuates those undesirable genetics.

I don’t consider ET as a way to produce more ‘rams for sale’ from a particular line, but as a way to multiply females from superior lines, which might well be females that aren’t available to buy, regardless of the size of your chequebook. I’d certainly sooner have more females from my best ewes, than ever I would buying somebody else’s at a sale. I know the generations of selection that’s behind my own breeding ewes, as I hope would be the case for most stockmen.
Those extra females from those best families are the ones that will drive the flock/herd forward, and potentially the ones that will breed those extra rams/bulls for sale.

 

[neilo]

If she keels over without leaving a lamb is she worth breeding from?

lol. If she keels over from a walker’s dog being left running loose, or gets stuck/drowned in the lake, or her lambs get taken by a badger, or ...... ?

As I posted, I’m a great believer in Sod’s law. It’s never the worst ewe that gets lost in those scenarios. Flushing her is an insurance policy against that.
Obviously if the progeny fail to perform as expected, they would go fat the same as any others. I have enough confidence in her, and her breeding, that I’m prepared to take that gamble, otherwise I wouldn’t be making the investment.

 

[Pigken]

An article in the Scottish Farmer, by a well-respected beef and sheep pedigree breeder, suggests that embryo transfers might be doing a great disservice to the industry.

Many of the breeds flushed, have distocia problems, and their embryos are placed in recipients of breeds with far fewer problems. In fact, some individuals which are flushed would rather not be put in calf or lamb, because they are too valuable to lose during birth or expensive caesarean operations.

A prime example in sheep is where Texel embryos are transferred to older easier lambing breeds like the Mule or Suffolk crosses. Would you want to buy a tup lamb bred by that method, and should pedigree sales provide details of how such a tup or bull has been produced?

What about folk E T ing swale ewes, breeding mules to get consistent runs of bonny faced glimmer lambs. Is that genetic progression or vanity progression.

 

[Pigken]

Used to cross paths with a very pleasant fella from one of larger semen companies. One day when he called in, the laptop came out and where shown some pictures of some tremendous looking Belgium blues. Picture after picture peas in a pod they where. One picture calf standing sucking mother, her side door stitched obvious. I asked what will you do with that calf, what do you mean. Well obviously that will not be used in future if had calving problems. What are you on about, he said. All cows c sectioned, no natural births. Well how do you know about calving ease etc. To which laptop was shut conversation over. Disappointing in my eyes was, each cow used a surrogate 3 times. As apparently only viable to c section animal 3 times before she knackered. Thought strange outlook, from such a company but I know nowt.

 

[egbert]

lol. If she keels over from a walker’s dog being left running loose, or gets stuck/drowned in the lake, or her lambs get taken by a badger, or ...... ?

As I posted, I’m a great believer in Sod’s law. It’s never the worst ewe that gets lost in those scenarios. Flushing her is an insurance policy against that.
Obviously if the progeny fail to perform as expected, they would go fat the same as any others. I have enough confidence in her, and her breeding, that I’m prepared to take that gamble, otherwise I wouldn’t be making the investment.

ah....all traits to be avoided for me!
I want em to a, fight back, b, have more sense (big ask in a yow) c, deliver things that get up and run, (or see a,)

As I've just been writing in a piece for ...er...novice breeders, don't keep a bull calf from any cow you have to notice, unless it's to reflect that 'by golly, that's another good calf she's reared'.
I loved that Stabiliser fella's early philosophy. Ear notch any cow you have to touch. Cull those with notches.



I wouldn't have an issue with you keeping tup lambs born sisters to the ET females you're chasing. That'd be helping recoup expenses.
(are you able to sex embryo's?)

 

[MDL POWERUP]

lol. If she keels over from a walker’s dog being left running loose, or gets stuck/drowned in the lake, or her lambs get taken by a badger, or ...... ?

As I posted, I’m a great believer in Sod’s law. It’s never the worst ewe that gets lost in those scenarios. Flushing her is an insurance policy against that.
Obviously if the progeny fail to perform as expected, they would go fat the same as any others. I have enough confidence in her, and her breeding, that I’m prepared to take that gamble, otherwise I wouldn’t be making the investment.

a

It was more a tongue In cheek comment really neilo . Out of interest how much does it cost to flush a ewe and do the transfers etc

 

[liammogs]

As a pedigree breeder, my own policy after learning the hard way by hurting my pocket......ET Tups are fine.....but ET born ewes......stay clear, i want a ewe born naturally out of a functional ewe cause it's the same system I run at home, nothing worse than a good ewe that can't rear a lamb worth a damn or unable to lamb in the first place

 

[neilo]

What about folk E T ing swale ewes, breeding mules to get consistent runs of bonny faced glimmer lambs. Is that genetic progression or vanity progression.

Surely that would never add up financially?

Flushing that latest fashion accessory, the Dutch Spotted ewe, and selling the ten embryos produced for £600 each, now that is making some money....

 

[neilo]

a

It was more a tongue In cheek comment really neilo . Out of interest how much does it cost to flush a ewe and do the transfers etc

Flushing is about £450-500/donor, which includes transferring the fresh embryos into recipient ewes. If the embryos are frozen then there are storage charges and a charge of £15/embryo to implant later.

If the result is 2 embryos then it’s an expensive job. If you get twenty or thirty, then you’ll not find a cheaper way to multiply elite lines. Results are variable and unpredictable, but ewes/cows that flush good numbers tend to do it again.

I remember a friend flushing a ewe repeatedly back in the mid-nineties. She was a ewe he’d bought from Northern Ireland who had gone on to win lots of Championships, and she was a beast of a thing, a real powerhouse. I remember him telling me that he’d flushed her 3 times in one season, implanting 30 embryos each time!
Incidentally, I bought a shearling daughter off that ewe for 1500gns later on, and from the size of her teats I could see why he didn’t breed her naturally. Her lines didn’t stay here long, and illustrates why it is so important to select donors properly.

 

[neilo]

ah....all traits to be avoided for me!
I want em to a, fight back, b, have more sense (big ask in a yow) c, deliver things that get up and run, (or see a,)

As I've just been writing in a piece for ...er...novice breeders, don't keep a bull calf from any cow you have to notice, unless it's to reflect that 'by golly, that's another good calf she's reared'.
I loved that Stabiliser fella's early philosophy. Ear notch any cow you have to touch. Cull those with notches.

I wouldn't have an issue with you keeping tup lambs born sisters to the ET females you're chasing. That'd be helping recoup expenses.
(are you able to sex embryo's?)

My selection within my maternal flock is very much along those lines, but I’m not about to start actively selecting against hindquarter fleshing in terminal sire ewes. CS is out (for obvious reasons), huge birth weight lines don’t hang about long, but where a little assistance is needed because of hindquarter confirmation in a terminal breed, she’ll get a pass.
A terminal sire’s job is to add growth and muscling to lambs/calves bred from maternal lines, not be a Jack of all trades, imo.

As to the badgers, I’ve lost 2 strong, single, 3 week old ram lambs to the b*stards this year, one of them an ET bred lamb as it happens. I don’t class that as a weakness in the genetics though.

 

[westwards]

Too many breeds and breeders are turning a blind eye to the breeding of stock that won't milk and you can't get the lambs out alive, and they then sell very high priced inlamb gimmers with fancy pedigree's too hopefull breeders who then get very disillusioned and poor quickly. In my case its Texels !!

 

[Ribble]

Does flushing damage the female in any way?

 

[neilo]

Too many breeds and breeders are turning a blind eye to the breeding of stock that won't milk and you can't get the lambs out alive, and they then sell very high priced inlamb gimmers with fancy pedigree's too hopefull breeders who then get very disillusioned and poor quickly. In my case its Texels !!

Definitely, but that’s the breeders at fault, not the ET procedure itself.

 

[neilo]

Does flushing damage the female in any way?

My donors from this October all took the ram soon after, and due to lamb any day now.

The procedure involves keyhole surgery in sheep (non-invasive in cattle), after a course of fertility hormones, which is the same as some women have for ivf.
How much that constitutes ‘damage’ is open to interpretation I suppose.

 

[westwards]

Definitely, but that’s the breeders at fault, not the ET procedure itself.

But by flushing these sheep that they can't lamb naturally and putting eggs into cross ewes which can usually lamb them no bother they only keep the problem moving onto someone else, yes the breeders are at fault but if the Breed Society don't and won't stop them doing it they will ruin the breed. They need to start and somehow do pelvic scoring to show a ewes ability to get a live lamb out of her.

 

[gwi1890]

But by flushing these sheep that they can't lamb naturally and putting eggs into cross ewes which can usually lamb them no bother they only keep the problem moving onto someone else, yes the breeders are at fault but if the Breed Society don't and won't stop them doing it they will ruin the breed. They need to start and somehow do pelvic scoring to show a ewes ability to get a live lamb out of her.

First of all
The boys selling E.T lambs at 20k + are the boys who draw new members to the society more member = more money = more birth notification = more money and at the end of the day that’s what the society want I suppose .

And second alot farmers have no interest in figures so there is already ease of lambing figures and brith weight, I had a customer over last year and he narrowed his choice down to 2 tups one had good figures for ease of lambing and low birthweight was born a twin and better muscle depth, he chose the 120kg single shearling as he had a better head and broader shoulders to cross over his improved welsh sheep. There’s a blame on both sides they produce what the market want which is tups with huge mature weights and that look masculine ( not saying this is correct)

 

[andybk]

First of all
The boys selling E.T lambs at 20k + are the boys who draw new members to the society more member = more money = more birth notification = more money

And they are playing fast and loose with the breed , breeders should be guardians of all thats good in individual breeds , yes there is room for improvements , whether structural or carcase wise , but should be mainly done as a traditional flock .
Im not so sure the ones always using ET are doing it for the right reasons , the strength of any breed is its slight diversity .
the fact they are often a bit inbred is what gives strength with hybrid vigour when outcrossed .
Et has its place for specific things but as a normality it doesn't .

 

[Fourofakind]

Out of interest, we hear of breeders flushing ewes a couple of times in the same season. Can the amount of embryos be the same each time or is it a given the second flush will provide less?

 

[gwi1890]

And they are playing fast and loose with the breed , breeders should be guardians of all thats good in individual breeds , yes there is room for improvements , whether structural or carcase wise , but should be mainly done as a traditional flock .
Im not so sure the ones always using ET are doing it for the right reasons , the strength of any breed is its slight diversity .
the fact they are often a bit inbred is what gives strength with hybrid vigour when outcrossed .
Et has its place for specific things but as a normality it doesn't .

yes I wasn’t saying it what they are doing is right but it’s unlikely that anything is going to change the society sure as heck won’t do anything to change it