The cost of doing safety on the cheap !

milkloss · Feb 9, 2021

So going along @ollie989898 line of questioning. I want a new barn, find a contractor to source and erect a building that I want. A shake of hands confirms the price and that the contractor confirms he's a careful guy and looks after his team (not sure how he does this exactly but let's say verbal and a few lines in the paperwork).

a week later I'm on holiday, tagging calves, giving the Mrs a seeing to or whatever and one the contractors boys falls off the roof.

my fault in the eyes of the law but what could I have done different considering I didn't know any better?

ollie989898 · Feb 9, 2021

milkloss said:
So going along @ollie989898 line of questioning. I want a new barn, find a contractor to source and erect a building that I want. A shake of hands confirms the price and that the contractor confirms he's a careful guy and looks after his team (not sure how he does this exactly but let's say verbal and a few lines in the paperwork).

a week later I'm on holiday, tagging calves, giving the Mrs a seeing to or whatever and one the contractors boys falls off the roof.

my fault in the eyes of the law but what could I have done different considering I didn't know any better?

I'm presuming you didn't sign a contract that said: 'the price is X and we will be doing the work with scant regard for health and safety. If you want a job done in a legal manner, the price will be Y?'

This is a very interesting area of law and I'm glad someone brought it up. I've used a company to fit our wood burner a couple of years ago, to this day I have no idea how they fitted the parts to the chimney as I wasn't here at the time, I am guessing they didn't send a guy up using a rope and walking on the roof? Or ancient wooden ladders full of wood worm?

That electrician you used to rewire some of the parlour light the other day, did he tell you he was going to use professional rated insulated tools to do the job first or the tools from his son's meccano kit?

Mark Hatton · Feb 9, 2021

Having worked in other industries where you can't do anything without completing Risk assessments before starting any work and having produced method statements as to how you are going to conduct said work, agriculture is a long way behind other industries in many ways as regards H&S. Farms are a place of work and fall under the H&S at work act, Its just a pity far more involved in the industry don't take H&S far more seriously.

milkloss · Feb 9, 2021

ollie989898 said:
I'm presuming you didn't sign a contract that said: 'the price is X and we will be doing the work with scant regard for health and safety. If you want a job done in a legal manner, the price will be Y?'

This is a very interesting area of law and I'm glad someone brought it up. I've used a company to fit our wood burner a couple of years ago, to this day I have no idea how they fitted the parts to the chimney as I wasn't here at the time, I am guessing they didn't send a guy up using a rope and walking on the roof? Or ancient wooden ladders full of wood worm?

That electrician you used to rewire some of the parlour light the other day, did he tell you he was going to use professional rated insulated tools to do the job first or the tools from his son's meccano kit?

I suppose either I can't do anything other than watch the contractors when they're on site, but even then I wouldn't have the training to be able to spot dangers or irresponsible working practices (remember I'm the guy tagging calves, dealing with arsed cattle and roaring around on a quad etc so not a good example even if I'm experienced/trained up).
The other option is to pay someone else to be onsite pretty much 24hrs (public safety too as there's a footpath nearby) that will carry the can if something goes wrong. There's still the issue that if the watcher isn't doing his job properly then I'm the one given the can again.

puppet · Feb 9, 2021

ollie989898 said:
Ok, so I accept that as a business owner I would have no clue how safe work at height is done nor what constitutes safe practice and what does not. I agree that I would engage and pay a contractor to do the work. I've deliberately used a professional business with a history of doing the work and who appear to have the correct training and procedures in place (to my untrained eye at any rate). If the employees of that contractor then fail to follow the health and safety rules of their own employer, how is it my fault?

I think most farmers will have a good idea of what you should be doing safely on a roof. Lots of advice from HSE and farmers are practical folk who, if they take time to stand back , will recognise what is dangerous.
Rails, crawling boards, nets and hard hats are expected from the contractor.
If you were not happy to be up there why should someone else?

steveR · Feb 9, 2021

Dry Rot said:
It's always a good idea to check out the solvency of any company you do a deal with before they start work.

But far from easy in many cases.

"Hang on Bill, I am just going to check your accounts on Company House first....!

ollie989898 · Feb 9, 2021

puppet said:
I think most farmers will have a good idea of what you should be doing safely on a roof. Lots of advice from HSE and farmers are practical folk who, if they take time to stand back , will recognise what is dangerous.
Rails, crawling boards, nets and hard hats are expected from the contractor.
If you were not happy to be up there why should someone else?

That is all well and good and I believe farmers, like anyone would want people to carry the work out safely- no building is worth risking your neck over. I agree with that. But a farmer can't be watching 24/7 nor will he understand the complexities of how work should be done. Yes, a man should not be walking around on a roof, most roofs I see on farms have warnings against doing so all over the shop. It's a recognised hazard but in a day and age when there are half a dozen categories of PPE people are supposed to wear according to the task in hand, you can't expect farmers to know if that guy's safety harness is of the correct type and being used correctly? That net they have put up, is it a genuine one or what? Is it safe or damaged or inadequate in some way?

I agree that farmers/site owners or operators have a duty of care to all. A contractor asks a farmer: 'can I use your telehandler to unload that truck a minute?' farmer agrees but neglects to tell the bloke the handbrake doesn't work, one window is shattered and you can't see behind you at all and the safe load indicator doesn't work either. Accident results and I fully expect the farmer to get the blame for that. But a guy falling off a roof because he isn't wearing his safety harness properly?

MD @Minshall Buildings · Feb 9, 2021

ollie989898 said:
That is all well and good and I believe farmers, like anyone would want people to carry the work out safely- no building is worth risking your neck over. I agree with that. But a farmer can't be watching 24/7 nor will he understand the complexities of how work should be done. Yes, a man should not be walking around on a roof, most roofs I see on farms have warnings against doing so all over the shop. It's a recognised hazard but in a day and age when there are half a dozen categories of PPE people are supposed to wear according to the task in hand, you can't expect farmers to know if that guy's safety harness is of the correct type and being used correctly? That net they have put up, is it a genuine one or what? Is it safe or damaged or inadequate in some way?

I agree that farmers/site owners or operators have a duty of care to all. A contractor asks a farmer: 'can I use your telehandler to unload that truck a minute?' farmer agrees but neglects to tell the bloke the handbrake doesn't work, one window is shattered and you can't see behind you at all and the safe load indicator doesn't work either. Accident results and I fully expect the farmer to get the blame for that. But a guy falling off a roof because he isn't wearing his safety harness properly?

We do more that 70% of our business in the industrial sector and you wont get near a site without confirming RAMS,H&S training, machine driver training and the list goes on!

I fully accept you may not have the time or inclination to go to this level ( even if HSE would prefer you did!) and there should be no need to stand over a competent contractor, but all my original post was trying to show was that you as a business owner/operator will be liable (financially and emotionally)if something goes wrong and someone looses their life and that " the cheapest gets it" culture only ensures these unsafe practices continue.

As someone else said earlier ignorance is no defence!

There are lots of good shed builders and erectors out there to keep the market competitive[RIDBA promotes a strong safety culture in its membership so is a good point of reference]..... but I'm afraid safety has a cost ,so if a quote is cheap then its for a reason so please ask questions ....that's all I'm really saying!

Ffermer Bach · Feb 9, 2021

puppet said:
I think most farmers will have a good idea of what you should be doing safely on a roof. Lots of advice from HSE and farmers are practical folk who, if they take time to stand back , will recognise what is dangerous.
Rails, crawling boards, nets and hard hats are expected from the contractor.
If you were not happy to be up there why should someone else?

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf

roscoe erf · Feb 9, 2021

Best just diy

Bob · Feb 9, 2021

Pigken said:
Slightly off topic Bob, but is that a picture of your turbine in your aviator. If so is it one of those big ones with red light on.

78 meters high. They do have aviation lights fitted but are infra red so only pilots can see them.

theboytheboy · Feb 9, 2021

MD @Minshall Buildings said:
my OP was to inform, so folk can hopefully be better equipped to ask the right questions of their contractor.......so the answer is to ask what is included and then compare all on the same basis.
I would suggest make a list of questions and then ask the contractor to confirm what he is including.

Bit like buying insurance I guess...What is included for the cost and what isn't!

Could you help us out and give us a list of the questions we should be asking?

I was recently looking at putting up a new shed (although have now spent the money on an opportunity that's unexpectedly came up)
It would be good to know what I need to be asking this time next year when getting new quotes.

Thanks

multi power · Feb 9, 2021

MD @Minshall Buildings said:
My reason for sharing this was that in our experience we nearly always loose business due to the client choosing a "cheaper" option by employing suppliers/erectors that don't use nets and handrails and therefore are much cheaper than those of us who do it properly!

They are usually cheaper and quicker for a reason?

......when we point this out to clients, many seem to think its not their problem as the supplier/erectors EL/PL insurance will cover....it wont!

Unless the client formally appoints a principle contractor, then its his responsibility for the build and if things go wrong, the prosecution/cost and worst of all....... the lives!

I would say ensure you always use a responsible contractor and there are lots about.....Alternatively save cash and take the risk ?

In our experience there is little between the cost of responsible building frame suppliers, the difference is usually what happens on site....whether we like it or not there is a cost for safe working!

How much does it actually cost to use a safety net? I've seen 2 sheds go up in the last year or so, they put up a net that covered perhaps half the shed, but didn't move it when working on the other end

theboytheboy · Feb 9, 2021

puppet said:
I think most farmers will have a good idea of what you should be doing safely on a roof. Lots of advice from HSE and farmers are practical folk who, if they take time to stand back , will recognise what is dangerous.
Rails, crawling boards, nets and hard hats are expected from the contractor.
If you were not happy to be up there why should someone else?

If they are not happy they should take responsibility for themselves and not be up there.....just as if I wasn't happy I wouldn't be.

theboytheboy · Feb 9, 2021

MD @Minshall Buildings said:
We do more that 70% of our business in the industrial sector and you wont get near a site without confirming RAMS,H&S training, machine driver training and the list goes on!

I fully accept you may not have the time or inclination to go to this level ( even if HSE would prefer you did!) and there should be no need to stand over a competent contractor, but all my original post was trying to show was that you as a business owner/operator will be liable (financially and emotionally)if something goes wrong and someone looses their life and that " the cheapest gets it" culture only ensures these unsafe practices continue.

As someone else said earlier ignorance is no defence!

There are lots of good shed builders and erectors out there to keep the market competitive[RIDBA promotes a strong safety culture in its membership so is a good point of reference]..... but I'm afraid safety has a cost ,so if a quote is cheap then its for a reason so please ask questions ....that's all I'm really saying!

I don't think anyone bid having a pop at your for your post.

theboytheboy · Feb 9, 2021

roscoe erf said:
Best just diy

Yes, it does leave you feeling that way.....which is nuts as I have no idea how to (safely) put up a shed and would probably do a crap job even if I did it safely

7610 super q · Feb 9, 2021

MD @Minshall Buildings said:
photo taken by a passing bank manager...even he could see this is unsafe?

....we lost this local project as our price was too high!

Maybe there's 2 Polish blokes moving a trampoline about below ?

betweenthelines · Feb 9, 2021

Before employing Contractors you should be asking them to provide a RAMS -Risk Assessment and Method Statement of what the possible risks are and how they intend to work so as to reduce the possibility of an accident happening.

If this is little more than "everyone wears a hi-viz and decent boots" I expect you'll look elsewhere. But it does need to be detailed enough to convince you that they have thought about what they are doing and how best to do it. It should also include the name of who within their business, is responsible for H&S.

I'd also say that anyone visiting your premises should be given H&S guidance relevant to why they are visiting.
While your monthly secretarial help needs little more than directions to the washroom, others might need a more detailed list of do's and don'ts such as were they can and cant go, what PPE they have to wear etc etc.

It's all about showing that you have taken "reasonable steps" to ensure people's safety. Getting a contractor to show they understand the risk of a task is reasonable, if they chose to ignore these risks without your knowledge, that's their responsibility. If a electrician comes to mend some fittings and gets flattened by your bull because you have left him (the leccy) to wander about on his own looking for somewhere to have a pee, well, that is your fault.

I doubt that you will get any further than "Reception" without some for of H&S guidance if you visit any well run business these days.

Johnnyboxer · Feb 9, 2021

....and we wonder why farming has such a poor safety record [emoji85]

If a farmyard was a building site, then nobody would move without a hard hat & HiViz

If farming doesn’t shape up, then HSE will impose their dictat on farmers, akin to construction & quarrying sectors

Forever Fendt · Feb 9, 2021

ollie989898 said:
Can you explain the need for nets, I've always assumed sheds were put up with people working in man baskets or from access platforms which is awkward but negates the need to be on top of the frame itself? I've never been involved in building work of that kind or watched it done.

Regarding falls, I've known cases where people have fallen less than 8 feet and hurt their spines/necks seriously.

if you have nets and fall through the roof you won't hit the floor

The cost of doing safety on the cheap !

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