The cost of doing safety on the cheap !

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

and it continues......risk vs. reward( or serious injury perhaps)?

 

[theboytheboy]

Can you help us out?

Can you post the questions we need to be asking?

@MD @Minshall Buildings I really genuinely would be grateful if you could help suggest a list of the minimum questions I would need to ask and the correct answers a contractor would need to give.

I hope to build a new shed next year and would like to get it right. From what I'm understanding I need to be asking the right questions when gathering quotes.

 

[deleted user 436632456]

I hope to build a new shed next year and would like to get it right. From what I'm understanding I need to be asking the right questions when gathering quotes.

Just remember who need to consider their health and safety as well from the hazards that your site imposes.
An example would be does your site have many vehicle movements? The shed builders need a safe space to work in without being in close contact with farm traffic etc.

A proper risk assessment will assess these hazards from all angles.

 

[glasshouse]

more like race to possible injury or even death in the case being discussed!!!!

Farming is dangerous because
1. Farmers work alone, so no one there to help
2. The farm is also a home
3. The end price has not increased for forty years
5. Land agents skim a hefty chunk off the industry for no input
6. Many farmers still work when well past retiring age.

 

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

@MD @Minshall Buildings I really genuinely would be grateful if you could help suggest a list of the minimum questions I would need to ask and the correct answers a contractor would need to give.

I hope to build a new shed next year and would like to get it right. From what I'm understanding I need to be asking the right questions when gathering quotes.

From our perspective there are essentially 3 tiers of supply of buildings to farms:

1. supply building only- ie no erection/cladding included ( farmer to sort )
2. supply building and offer names of sub contractors farmer can appoint directly ( we rarely offer this)
3. Supply building and complete full install( bases through to building completion)

Its the on site works where the H&S risks are, so whichever route you choose I would suggest your enquiry ( which I would always send in writing/email) for erection elements stipulates that quotation must include for all necessary safety equipment including the installation and use of nets and handrailing for roofing elements and sufficient mobile lifting platforms to ensure safe working at height. Once you appoint your erector ask them to submit RAMS ( risk and method statement) to cover the work being completed. If they are comfortable with all of this they are likely to have good H&S processes in place and you could then demonstrate to third parties that you had completed due diligence in respect of safety if required. Then once contractor is on site you then have a process( RAMS) to check they are complying with what they quoted to supply.

Sadly you cannot avoid all responsibility for H&S on your site but you can mitigate some of your liability if you can demonstrate you did something more responsible than just picking the lowest price!

Hope this helps a bit?

 

[flowerpot]

That does help. But from the Horse's Mouth:

You can delegate a task but not the responsibility.

 

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

That does help. But from the Horse's Mouth:

You can delegate a task but not the responsibility.

Sadly not .....however, the way I would look at these things is that there is a shared responsibility and liability . If you as the client /site owner do little to reduce your responsibility then the greater the risk/liability if things go wrong. If you can demonstrate to both HSE and insurers that you did everything reasonably possible then you have some mitigation and more of the onus goes to the contractor/his insurance?

Sadly nothing is 100% risk free for any of us, but we can all play our part in keeping everyone safe and thus hopefully avoiding the need for such discussions in the future?

 

[theboytheboy]

From our perspective there are essentially 3 tiers of supply of buildings to farms:

1. supply building only- ie no erection/cladding included ( farmer to sort )
2. supply building and offer names of sub contractors farmer can appoint directly ( we rarely offer this)
3. Supply building and complete full install( bases through to building completion)

Its the on site works where the H&S risks are, so whichever route you choose I would suggest your enquiry ( which I would always send in writing/email) for erection elements stipulates that quotation must include for all necessary safety equipment including the installation and use of nets and handrailing for roofing elements and sufficient mobile lifting platforms to ensure safe working at height. Once you appoint your erector ask them to submit RAMS ( risk and method statement) to cover the work being completed. If they are comfortable with all of this they are likely to have good H&S processes in place and you could then demonstrate to third parties that you had completed due diligence in respect of safety if required. Then once contractor is on site you then have a process( RAMS) to check they are complying with what they quoted to supply.

Sadly you cannot avoid all responsibility for H&S on your site but you can mitigate some of your liability if you can demonstrate you did something more responsible than just picking the lowest price!

Hope this helps a bit?

Thanks

 

[designanddetail]

You can always ask the shed builders to take the role of Principal Contractor , that puts more H&S onus on them, but quite a few will refuse this and the ones that do will charge a fee for this, as they should. This puts them in charge of any subbies for the flooring etc, including checking their H&S. This also puts the provision of welfare units, toilets' etc in their control.

 

[designanddetail]

One of the most pertinent statements for this thread

5.—(4) If the client fails to appoint a principal contractor, the client must fulfil the duties of the principal contractor...

The Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015

 

[designanddetail]

Who is the principal contractor?
The principal contractor is the contractor in overall control of the construction phase.

Because they are in charge of the construction site, they have many important duties to ensure the safety of the work.

Principal contractors are responsible for planning, managing, monitoring and coordinating the construction phase of the project, including preparing the construction phase plan, organising cooperation between contractors and coordinating their work and liaising with other duty holders.

They must make sure that suitable site inductions are provided, prevent unauthorised access, provide welfare facilities and consult and engage workers on health and safety matters.

 

[B R C]

Yes when I am installing boat racking with a main contractor even though I am not working or subbing for them I have to adhere to their site rules with safety briefing, signing in, rams, hots works etc as they are in charge of site. When I just go in on my own with no other contractors on site I can pretty much do as I want, even though the site owner school/university/club is responsible never get asked for anything, so it’s not just farmers who need to take a look at what they are doing!
Always use scaffold tower even if I’m only working 4’ off the floor

 

[7610 super q]

Building sheds. Another thing to add to the long list of things that's too much hassle to bother with.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Farming is the cheapest quote gets it
Rather different from construction

Not that different. In the EA we had to do a LOT of paperwork before being allowed to accept anything but the cheapest of any 3 quotes for work...

You undertake due diligence in obtaining at least basic details of their Risk Assessments & Method Statements, public liability insurance etc. You then sign a contract that appoints them as project manager/principal contractor and places the building site under their sole control for the period of the build. This places the H&S ball firmly in their court and you then do not need to be on site 24/7 watching like a hawk, although if you happen to become aware of any wrongdoing then you need to raise the issue with the site manager & formally document it. Performing an occasional check up to look for obvious things also looks good should HSE get involved!

Beat me to it. Formally handing over the site from start to finish is a great help. It makes all of the day-to-day safety matters their responsibility. It does mean you can't even enter the site without their permission and must follow their rules to the letter if you do.

The difference is that a H&S manager is an employee, thus their actions are the responsibility of the business directors/owner, whereas an construction contractor is not necessarily so. Building work comes under the scope of CDM 2015 which requires the "client" to perform certain duties in appointing a "designer" and "contractor" & engaging with the process, if those duties are fulfilled correctly then the H&S duties fall primarily on the designer & contractor. Cases where the client ends up in court generally involve the client giving the contractor the nod to go ahead & not actually fulfilling the basic requirements of a client under CDM 2015, simply awarding the contract and saying "get on with it" isn't enough.

Correct. And DO NOT change the spec after that point or suggest something is done differently. If you do then you resume the partial CDM role of "designer"

 

[pine_guy]

if you have nets and fall through the roof you won't hit the floor

Bloke that used to work for us went to work for a shed builder, fell of the roof and into the net which gave way and he still landed on the deck It such a minefield of possibilities of errors.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

If a worker falls into a net is that a reportable occurrence under RIDDOR?

How many farmers are even aware of RIDDOR?

 

[pine_guy]

If a worker falls into a net is that a reportable occurrence under RIDDOR?

How many farmers are even aware of RIDDOR?

Well I am now

 

[TheTallGuy]

If a worker falls into a net is that a reportable occurrence under RIDDOR?

How many farmers are even aware of RIDDOR?

I do no believe so....
https://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/dangerous-occurences.htm

Unless of course there is hospitalisation or injury.

 

[newhollandfarmer]

My reason for sharing this was that in our experience we nearly always loose business due to the client choosing a "cheaper" option by employing suppliers/erectors that don't use nets and handrails and therefore are much cheaper than those of us who do it properly!

They are usually cheaper and quicker for a reason?

......when we point this out to clients, many seem to think its not their problem as the supplier/erectors EL/PL insurance will cover....it wont!

Unless the client formally appoints a principle contractor, then its his responsibility for the build and if things go wrong, the prosecution/cost and worst of all....... the lives!

I would say ensure you always use a responsible contractor and there are lots about.....Alternatively save cash and take the risk ?

In our experience there is little between the cost of responsible building frame suppliers, the difference is usually what happens on site....whether we like it or not there is a cost for safe working!

Just having these same issues now!
Quoting to do jobs properly and comply with regulations and best practices, and also from a moral standpoint be able to sleep at night knowing we have done everything by the book so everyone goes home at the end of the day to their families and were not etting any work in whatsoever as a result.

 

[ollie989898]

My understanding was that all persons on the site have to work within the RAM and if they decide to do something outside of this it was on them?