The cost of doing safety on the cheap !

tomg · Feb 9, 2021

I'm quite surprised to read all this, we've just had a shed put up. 2 self employed blokes put the shed up and did a really tidy job. I asked before they started the roof about netting it but they said they weren't and if they fell through it would be there own fault. As many farmers would, I just assumed that if the worse did happen it would have come back on them and not me.
They also told me that the nets needed testing monthly? and the majority of erectors didn't bother getting them tested.
These chaps have been doing there job for years and came highly recommended from many people!

Thank good there wasn't accident!

steveR · Feb 9, 2021

tomg said:
I'm quite surprised to read all this, we've just had a shed put up. 2 self employed blokes put the shed up and did a really tidy job. I asked before they started the roof about netting it but they said they weren't and if they fell through it would be there own fault. As many farmers would, I just assumed that if the worse did happen it would have come back on them and not me.
They also told me that the nets needed testing monthly? and the majority of erectors didn't bother getting them tested.
These chaps have been doing there job for years and came highly recommended from many people!

Thank good there wasn't accident!

I suspect that many of us here have seen a shed going up on that basis. Looks we were wrong to let it go...

I had a shed put up and the guys erected it with a pair of cherrypicker platforms and a telehandler. I asked about net and was told it wasn't required for the build. Why wouldn't I believe him, they are putting up 1-2 sheds a week at times?

And yes all the rails were up as soon as required.

Forever Fendt · Feb 9, 2021

tomg said:
I'm quite surprised to read all this, we've just had a shed put up. 2 self employed blokes put the shed up and did a really tidy job. I asked before they started the roof about netting it but they said they weren't and if they fell through it would be there own fault. As many farmers would, I just assumed that if the worse did happen it would have come back on them and not me.
They also told me that the nets needed testing monthly? and the majority of erectors didn't bother getting them tested.
These chaps have been doing there job for years and came highly recommended from many people!

Thank good there wasn't accident!

Would rather land in an untested net than on the floor

Wombat · Feb 9, 2021

Johnnyboxer said:
....and we wonder why farming has such a poor safety record [emoji85]

If a farmyard was a building site, then nobody would move without a hard hat & HiViz

If farming doesn’t shape up, then HSE will impose their dictat on farmers, akin to construction & quarrying sectors

Could u advise the 2 walkers who went past 3 private no access signs, opened 2 gates and ended up in the yard while we were moving cattle last week to put theirs on as well please

In all serious though I am not sure a lot of farmers know what to ask, not saying that’s an excuse but if I was away and dad had to have someone In to fix a gutter he would ring up someone and ask them to come and fix it. Asking for method statements etc he probably wouldn’t think of.
So I think there is also a what should you do that we need to work on, we don’t have a safety manager etc that handles this.

Just look at the comment above where the roofers said they were liable if they fell which incorrect so the person let them carry on.

We had some lads come to put solar panels up and I said they weren’t doing it without scaffolding and nets. There comment was we were one of the only ones who had asked for it that year and they were doing industrial roofs as well

Smith31 · Feb 9, 2021

I find it rather surprising that farmers who have millions of pounds worth of assets are unaware of the fact that they are liable for folk working on their premises.

I find it unfair and strange that the OP is getting a hard time on this thread for merely pointing this out. The information which he has kindly provided could ultimately lead to some farmers avoiding losing the family farm if God forbid an accident occurred on their farm

.

Wombat · Feb 9, 2021

Smith31 said:
I find it rather surprising that farmers who have millions of pounds worth of assets are unaware of the fact that they are liable for folk working on their premises.

I find it unfair and strange that the OP is getting a hard time on this thread for merely pointing this out. The information which he has kindly provided could ultimately lead to some farmers avoiding losing the family farm if God forbid an accident occurred on their farm.

I think a lot of people just wrongly assume if you pay a professional to do a job they are responsible for doing it correctly.

Lakesdigger · Feb 9, 2021

Wombat said:
I think a lot of people just wrongly assume if you pay a professional to do a job they are responsible for doing it correctly.

Not in the cotton wool world we now live in full of snowflakes and ran by blameless people.

glasshouse · Feb 9, 2021

Johnnyboxer said:
....and we wonder why farming has such a poor safety record [emoji85]

If a farmyard was a building site, then nobody would move without a hard hat & HiViz

If farming doesn’t shape up, then HSE will impose their dictat on farmers, akin to construction & quarrying sectors

Farming is the cheapest quote gets it
Rather different from construction

vinnie123 · Feb 10, 2021

multi power said:
How much does it actually cost to use a safety net? I've seen 2 sheds go up in the last year or so, they put up a net that covered perhaps half the shed, but didn't move it when working on the other end

100’ x60’ was £600 in December

Johnnyboxer · Feb 10, 2021

glasshouse said:
Farming is the cheapest quote gets it
Rather different from construction

Why should the cheapest be correct?

Surely farmers evaluate quotes for buildings/tractors/insurance/banking etc don’t they, to make sure they know exactly what they are getting for their money ?

Scrub that ...in a former life

I remember 20 odd years ago, a farmer proudly telling me he was paying 0.5% over bank base for his overdraft

I asked to see the current facility letter from the bank and the bank statements

His o/d facility was tiered and yes he was/would be paying 0.5% for an o/d from £0 to £200k
From £200k - £400k it was 2% over base
From £400k - £700k it was 2.5% over base

Looking at his bank balance, with a years worth of statements it never dropped below £350k all year and in reality sat around £500k for most of the year

The bank knew this and tracked it, obviously

They set at cheap rate of 0.5% at the top of the letter in bold ink, on page 1 and then set the charging tiers information, on page 2

Guess what - the farmer hadn’t read further than the first paragraph on page 1 and he'd never even looked at page 2 with the tiers on [emoji85]

Let alone tracked where his overdraft min & max or average actual level was

When I pointed all this out, in the farm office that he was really paying 2.5% over base for 240 days out of 365, you could see his face crimson up and steam literally come from his ears

It always pays to read important letters thoroughly and then read them again , to make sure you comprehend what is being said

Same with quotes/instructions etc

MD @Minshall Buildings · Feb 10, 2021

steveR said:
I suspect that many of us here have seen a shed going up on that basis. Looks we were wrong to let it go...

I had a shed put up and the guys erected it with a pair of cherrypicker platforms and a telehandler. I asked about net and was told it wasn't required for the build. Why wouldn't I believe him, they are putting up 1-2 sheds a week at times?

And yes all the rails were up as soon as required.

not sure how you put roof sheets on from a telehandler or platform ..you have to be on the roof...hence need for nets.....the problem continues!!!

MD @Minshall Buildings · Feb 10, 2021

multi power said:
How much does it actually cost to use a safety net? I've seen 2 sheds go up in the last year or so, they put up a net that covered perhaps half the shed, but didn't move it when working on the other end

ridiculous and clearly unsafe!

glasshouse · Feb 10, 2021

Johnnyboxer said:
Why should the cheapest be correct?

Surely farmers evaluate quotes for buildings/tractors/insurance/banking etc don’t they, to make sure they know exactly what they are getting for their money ?

Scrub that ...in a former life

I remember 20 odd years ago, a farmer proudly telling me he was paying 0.5% over bank base for his overdraft

I asked to see the current facility letter from the bank and the bank statements

His o/d facility was tiered and yes he was/would be paying 0.5% for an o/d from £0 to £200k
From £200k - £400k it was 2% over base
From £400k - £700k it was 2.5% over base

Looking at his bank balance in a years worth of statements it never dropped below £350k all year and in reality sat around £500k for most of the year

The bank knew this and tracked it, obviously

They set at cheap rate of 0.5% at the top of the letter in bold ink, on page 1 and then set the charging tiers on page 2

Guess what - the farmer hadn’t read further than the first paragraph on page 1 and never even looked at page 2 with the tiers on [emoji85]

Let alone tracked where his overdraft min & max or average actual level was

When I pointed all this out, in the farm office that he was really paying 2.5% over base for 240 days out of 365, you could see his face crimson up and steam literally come from his ears

It always pays to read important letters thoroughly and then read them again , to make sure you comprehend what is being said

Same with quotes/instructions etc

Farmers get land by offering the lowest quote for the work
Race to the bottom
Simples

MD @Minshall Buildings · Feb 10, 2021

glasshouse said:
Farmers get land by offering the lowest quote for the work
Race to the bottom
Simples

more like race to possible injury or even death in the case being discussed!!!!

glasshouse · Feb 10, 2021

MD @Minshall Buildings said:
more like race to possible injury or even death in the case being discussed!!!!

When i built a very large shed 25 yr ago on a tenanted farm, i got two quotes to erect the steelwork and roof
One quote was 5 times the other
Guess who got it?
Yes, the two cowboys with the iron fairy crain with no exhaust.
And they actually did wear cowboy hats.

steveR · Feb 10, 2021

MD @Minshall Buildings said:
not sure how you put roof sheets on from a telehandler or platform ..you have to be on the roof...hence need for nets.....the problem continues!!!

Point!

betweenthelines · Feb 10, 2021

tomg said:
I'm quite surprised to read all this, we've just had a shed put up. 2 self employed blokes put the shed up and did a really tidy job. I asked before they started the roof about netting it but they said they weren't and if they fell through it would be there own fault. As many farmers would, I just assumed that if the worse did happen it would have come back on them and not me.
They also told me that the nets needed testing monthly? and the majority of erectors didn't bother getting them tested.
These chaps have been doing there job for years and came highly recommended from many people!

Thank good there wasn't accident!

Ignore the leagal aspect for a minute.

How would you feel if one of the guys putting up your shed had falen and broken his back, or worse?

Just shrugged and said "Well it's his own fault?"

TheTallGuy · Feb 10, 2021

milkloss said:
So going along @ollie989898 line of questioning. I want a new barn, find a contractor to source and erect a building that I want. A shake of hands confirms the price and that the contractor confirms he's a careful guy and looks after his team (not sure how he does this exactly but let's say verbal and a few lines in the paperwork).

a week later I'm on holiday, tagging calves, giving the Mrs a seeing to or whatever and one the contractors boys falls off the roof.

my fault in the eyes of the law but what could I have done different considering I didn't know any better?

You undertake due diligence in obtaining at least basic details of their Risk Assessments & Method Statements, public liability insurance etc. You then sign a contract that appoints them as project manager/principal contractor and places the building site under their sole control for the period of the build. This places the H&S ball firmly in their court and you then do not need to be on site 24/7 watching like a hawk, although if you happen to become aware of any wrongdoing then you need to raise the issue with the site manager & formally document it. Performing an occasional check up to look for obvious things also looks good should HSE get involved!

milkloss · Feb 10, 2021

TheTallGuy said:
You undertake due diligence in obtaining at least basic details of their Risk Assessments & Method Statements, public liability insurance etc. You then sign a contract that appoints them as project manager/principal contractor and places the building site under their sole control for the period of the build. This places the H&S ball firmly in their court and you then do not need to be on site 24/7 watching like a hawk, although if you happen to become aware of any wrongdoing then you need to raise the issue with the site manager & formally document it. Performing an occasional check up to look for obvious things also looks good should HSE get involved!

Thank you, explained it well.

betweenthelines · Feb 11, 2021

TheTallGuy said:
You undertake due diligence in obtaining at least basic details of their Risk Assessments & Method Statements, public liability insurance etc. You then sign a contract that appoints them as project manager/principal contractor and places the building site under their sole control for the period of the build. This places the H&S ball firmly in their court and you then do not need to be on site 24/7 watching like a hawk, although if you happen to become aware of any wrongdoing then you need to raise the issue with the site manager & formally document it. Performing an occasional check up to look for obvious things also looks good should HSE get involved!

I don't think you can delegate out of your H & S responsibilities as the owner or occupier of the site.

The cost of doing safety on the cheap !

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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