Attention landlords

[glasshouse]

Land values will have to drop here massively for this to happen

Foreigners need govt approval to buy in nz
Unlike the uk

 

[kiwi pom]

Land values will have to drop here massively for this to happen

Why?

 

[kiwi pom]

Foreigners need govt approval to buy in nz
Unlike the uk

A lot of them get it though.

I think a lot of the big dairy conversions worth tens of millions are equity partnerships now with money from big business. They still run the farm though and just employ a manager or contract milker. No need for a tenant

China figured out, you can't actually take the land with you if you buy it, so they have invested in processing and just take the finished product instead.
Sneaky of them.

 

[Mixedupfarmer]

Why?

Because land values in the UK are artificially high due to tax advantages for owners, and it is almost impossible to buy land from farming it

 

[DrWazzock]

It never fails to amaze me. A considerable amount of land down here off the wolds is grade 3, has been continuous arable for years, is basically mined out of indices and humus, infested with blackgrass, knackered drainage. You never see a lime spreader and every wisp of straw is carted off with no muck returned. Yet folks queue up to pay more than £100 per acre FBT.
That’s all the sub is doing isn’t it? Perpetuating farming for the sake of it, rather than getting the fundamentals right?

 

[Steevo]

It never fails to amaze me. A considerable amount of land down here off the wolds is grade 3, has been continuous arable for years, is basically mined out of indices and humus, infested with blackgrass, knackered drainage. You never see a lime spreader and every wisp of straw is carted off with no muck returned. Yet folks queue up to pay more than £100 per acre FBT.
That’s all the sub is doing isn’t it? Perpetuating farming for the sake of it, rather than getting the fundamentals right?

It would be a darned sight better if they did a 50% grant on drainage I know that. Far better for "productivity" than the eligible items that appear on most grant funding lists, but out of reach of many farmers because it's such a high cost compared to the rate of return.

Not lime though.....if someone isn't prepared to spend on that and get twice their money back in just a couple of years then that's their loss.

As you say though, the sub does perpetuate farming for the sake of it, regardless of the profit in the job, as does the tax treatment. It doesn't help that the profit margin from farming is fairly small, but is also very volatile due to weather, prices etc.

 

[DrWazzock]

It would be a darned sight better if they did a 50% grant on drainage I know that. Far better for "productivity" than the eligible items that appear on most grant funding lists, but out of reach of many farmers because it's such a high cost compared to the rate of return.

Not lime though.....if someone isn't prepared to spend on that and get twice their money back in just a couple of years then that's their loss.

As you say though, the sub does perpetuate farming for the sake of it, regardless of the profit in the job, as does the tax treatment. It doesn't help that the profit margin from farming is fairly small, but is also very volatile due to weather, prices etc.

Drainage grants in the 1970’s made this farm. Probably the best return on investment for 40 years, along with the “big shed”.
It really does grind my gears that the rewinding lot would be happy to see it a sodden waterlogged anaerobic mess bubbling marsh gas (that’s methane a greenhouse gas) into the atmosphere.

 

[Cowcorn]

But that has its own problems. A solution is to stop the payments totally and then there is no possible income except from farming or letting to a farmer

How right you are, all payments that are linked to land ownership are a land agents dream . Payments should be made to the person who farms the land if at all.
Maybe my father was right all " scames " were bad for renters as he relied on his skill to pay the rent and make money . His era the sixties and seventies were win big or lose big depending on the weather . But land was more available and the options a landowner had if he couldnt or wouldnt farm were limited to renting or selling

 

[Steevo]

How right you are, all payments that are linked to land ownership are a land agents dream . Payments should be made to the person who farms the land if at all.
Maybe my father was right all " scames " were bad for renters as he relied on his skill to pay the rent and make money . His era the sixties and seventies were win big or lose big depending on the weather . But land was more available and the options a landowner had if he couldnt or wouldnt farm were limited to renting or selling

Surely any payment made to the person who farms the land would just directly increase the rental value tenants would tender. After all, it is tenants who tender rents that decide the price they are prepared to pay - the landlord only accepts whichever offer he wishes from the selection presented. If one person won't pass it on, someone else would be happy to just to secure the additional land.

If the rent offered did not include the full value of this payment the landlord would surely just employ a contractor on a stubble to stubble contract. This would mean he would claim the payment for farming the land and would then pay the contractors fees, plus input costs.

 

[Cowcorn]

Surely any payment made to the person who farms the land would just directly increase the rental value tenants would tender. After all, it is tenants who tender rents that decide the price they are prepared to pay - the landlord only accepts whichever offer he wishes from the selection presented. If one person won't pass it on, someone else would be happy to just to secure the additional land.

If the rent offered did not include the full value of this payment the landlord would surely just employ a contractor on a stubble to stubble contract. This would mean he would claim the payment for farming the land and would then pay the contractors fees, plus input costs.

Sorry Steevo i was basing my post on the way the the job panned out over here when the fischler reforms gave entitlements to the people who claimed the Arable aid the previous year . With the option to stack you only needed 50 % of your previous area to get your full payment . A lot of dear land got dropped and rents halved for a few years . But other green schemes crazy dairy expanders and forestry are putting the grain renter back on the backfoot .

 

[two-cylinder]

A solution is to stop the payments totally and then there is no possible income except from farming or letting to a farmer

True, but will it make much difference overall?
There will just be an adjustment in where rent comes from?
Without the BPS landlords and their agents will be even keener to achieve a sizeable rent?
I can foresee Agribusinesses hungry for greater acreage to spread costs?
There will still be high demand for rented land and it will not be much cheaper.

 

[Flat 10]

True, but will it make much difference overall?
There will just be an adjustment in where rent comes from?
Without the BPS landlords and their agents will be even keener to achieve a sizeable rent?
I can foresee Agribusinesses hungry for greater acreage to spread costs?
There will still be high demand for rented land and it will not be much cheaper.

I think so. Sod what the agents and LLs want if there’s no distorting subsidies rents will fall. Especially if the AD ones go too.... In the 30’s farms were let pretty much rent free. Market forces innit?

 

[kiwi pom]

Because land values in the UK are artificially high due to tax advantages for owners, and it is almost impossible to buy land from farming it

If the rules changed a bit, perhaps if the sub went and their wasn't the margin for landlord and tenant, wouldn't the current land owners look to farm it themselves?
Get rid of tenants, pay someone to plant trees or flowers and claim the sub. Alternatively they could just hire someone like Clive to farm it for them on a contract basis or employ a manager.
If as suggested here the sub goes, landlords won't just lower rents, they'll find other ways to make things work.

 

[glasshouse]

If the rules changed a bit, perhaps if the sub went and their wasn't the margin for landlord and tenant, wouldn't the current land owners look to farm it themselves?
Get rid of tenants, pay someone to plant trees or flowers and claim the sub. Alternatively they could just hire someone like Clive to farm it for them on a contract basis or employ a manager.
If as suggested here the sub goes, landlords won't just lower rents, they'll find other ways to make things work.

They cant just get tid of tenants, they actually have some rights

 

[Mixedupfarmer]

If the rules changed a bit, perhaps if the sub went and their wasn't the margin for landlord and tenant, wouldn't the current land owners look to farm it themselves?
Get rid of tenants, pay someone to plant trees or flowers and claim the sub. Alternatively they could just hire someone like Clive to farm it for them on a contract basis or employ a manager.
If as suggested here the sub goes, landlords won't just lower rents, they'll find other ways to make things work.

Some might but then they could be doing this already if they were interested in farming it / potentially earning a higher return. However in the last year or two around here I suspect fbt returns to landlords will have been as good or better than farming it themselves, with less risk and investment. If there is no sub returns will drop from farming it themselves or having it contract farmed with more risk and input/cost by them/ an advisor. Who knows what’s going to happen?

 

[Cowcorn]

True, but will it make much difference overall?
There will just be an adjustment in where rent comes from?
Without the BPS landlords and their agents will be even keener to achieve a sizeable rent?
I can foresee Agribusinesses hungry for greater acreage to spread costs?
There will still be high demand for rented land and it will not be much cheaper.

Initally i think you could be right . The scale is the answer boys will try to farm more acres to " spread costs " but could find that the only thing the are doing is increasing losses . A lot of rented ground is costingway to much so is effectively been mined of all its nutrients just to wash its face . Any one looking at extra ground would be well advised to enquire about the previous tenants experience
Also a lot of contract farmers could come under pressure to work cheaper or deliver bigger yields to maintain the landowners cut . No point in trying to sell your low cost system to a rent hungry landlord if you are not putting the grain over the weighbridge . Back in the day we rented a lot of ground but the economics were more even then .
Around 1990 we could take land on an annaul basis for between 100 and 150 quid an acre an Irish acre that is . There are roughly 8 statue acres in 5 irish or that was the way we measured it . I remember renting 18 irish acres at a public auctio for 110 an irish acre . Drilled spring oats in it that yielded over 3 ton statue acre or 5 ton an Irish . Are you confused yet ?? Baled the straw in small squares and flogged it to the the sheep men at 40 p a bale the straw nearly paid the rent . The sheep men were the first subsidy junkies at the time there was 20 quid a head sub on sheep so most of them had too many and were good customers for oats and straw . The oats came into 135 a ton and went for milling . In 92 i rented a 100 irish acre block on the " lump" for 80 quid acre for linseed my first experience of farming for subsidy a very profitable experience i might say but the coming of the subsidy era was the start of the rot that has lead to the present suitation where the balance has swung way to much in favour of the landowner and the tenant is existing on the crumbs and hope . The yearly system or conacre had its faults but at least the rent could be reduced as you were only tied to one crop . Leasing for long periods is the norm now but un fortunately the rent is set high at the start and a bad year can cripple you .

 

[glasshouse]

Initally i think you could be right . The scale is the answer boys will try to farm more acres to " spread costs " but could find that the only thing the are doing is increasing losses . A lot of rented ground is costingway to much so is effectively been mined of all its nutrients just to wash its face . Any one looking at extra ground would be well advised to enquire about the previous tenants experience
Also a lot of contract farmers could come under pressure to work cheaper or deliver bigger yields to maintain the landowners cut . No point in trying to sell your low cost system to a rent hungry landlord if you are not putting the grain over the weighbridge . Back in the day we rented a lot of ground but the economics were more even then .
Around 1990 we could take land on an annaul basis for between 100 and 150 quid an acre an Irish acre that is . There are roughly 8 statue acres in 5 irish or that was the way we measured it . I remember renting 18 irish acres at a public auctio for 110 an irish acre . Drilled spring oats in it that yielded over 3 ton statue acre or 5 ton an Irish . Are you confused yet ?? Baled the straw in small squares and flogged it to the the sheep men at 40 p a bale the straw nearly paid the rent . The sheep men were the first subsidy junkies at the time there was 20 quid a head sub on sheep so most of them had too many and were good customers for oats and straw . The oats came into 135 a ton and went for milling . In 92 i rented a 100 irish acre block on the " lump" for 80 quid acre for linseed my first experience of farming for subsidy a very profitable experience i might say but the coming of the subsidy era was the start of the rot that has lead to the present suitation where the balance has swung way to much in favour of the landowner and the tenant is existing on the crumbs and hope . The yearly system or conacre had its faults but at least the rent could be reduced as you were only tied to one crop . Leasing for long periods is the norm now but un fortunately the rent is set high at the start and a bad year can cripple you .

Yes area payments were the death of tenant farming

 

[BELOWAVERAGE]

They cant just get tid of tenants, they actually have some rights

When push comes too shove, I don't think they've many.

 

[Brisel]

Yes area payments were the death of tenant farming

How would tenants make a living without them?

 

[glasshouse]

How would tenants make a living without them?

We managed perfectly well and even prospered before.
As @Cowcorn said.
Acreage payments have led to thousands of tenants getting evicted , there have been 3’suicides within a twelve mile radius of here because of it