Mob Breeding

[Jonny B88]

I’ve been wandering about this. What if you ran two mobs essentially those that are a breeding group and those that are for beef/lamb or whatever. That way you have a degree of control over what animals breed. Buy in say for 70-90 cows about 3-4 yearling or two year old bulls. Keep moving them on before daughters enter the breeding group

 

[Fenwick]

I’ve been wandering about this. What if you ran two mobs essentially those that are a breeding group and those that are for beef/lamb or whatever. That way you have a degree of control over what animals breed. Buy in say for 70-90 cows about 3-4 yearling or two year old bulls. Keep moving them on before daughters enter the breeding group

This is pretty much how we do it here.

 

[martian]

We've been running two mobs here, so heifers and cows that we don't want to put back to bull and fatteners get the herbal leys and best grazing, whilst the cows and calves (two/three months old) and selected heifers get to run with three bulls for nine weeks. Bulls have 40 odd each to service (120 altogether) which doesn't give them too much time to argue. Not mob breeding exactly, but it works for us.

 

[Jonny B88]

We've been running two mobs here, so heifers and cows that we don't want to put back to bull and fatteners get the herbal leys and best grazing, whilst the cows and calves (two/three months old) and selected heifers get to run with three bulls for nine weeks. Bulls have 40 odd each to service (120 altogether) which doesn't give them too much time to argue. Not mob breeding exactly, but it works for us.

How do you find the bulls interact in the non breeding season? Do you put them together or keep separate? I had thought if we were able to purchase say 3 yearling bulls at the same time they would grow up together and have their hierarchy sorted out so they wouldn’t fight later on in life, especially if they were never separated.

 

[Gulli]

How do you find the bulls interact in the non breeding season? Do you put them together or keep separate? I had thought if we were able to purchase say 3 yearling bulls at the same time they would grow up together and have their hierarchy sorted out so they wouldn’t fight later on in life, especially if they were never separated.

You should be fine, I run all ours together when they aren't working and after a bit of a sort out to start with they are fine
Helps if there's a variation in size in the group but if they are yearlings they will be fine.
Just don't mix them in a shed the first time

 

[Fenwick]

How do you find the bulls interact in the non breeding season? Do you put them together or keep separate? I had thought if we were able to purchase say 3 yearling bulls at the same time they would grow up together and have their hierarchy sorted out so they wouldn’t fight later on in life, especially if they were never separated.

a big difference in size and strength and they dont seem to fight.

 

[som farmer]

dad used to reckon, if you ran young bulls with hfrs, you would get more hfrs than bulls, we did this for years, with dairy hfrs, and young hol bulls, and to be honest, we got 2/3rds hfrs, his reasoning was, females in nature, were the 'lesser' of the sexes, they just produced calves, but as you got towards the end of the breeding season, it was the fitest, and strongest bulls left, and it was those bulls that bred the bulls of the future. Not sure l totally agree, but we always got, and still do, more hfrs from young bulls. There does seem to be some logic there, natural selection, but whether it is, or isn't correct, l cannot say, undecided is my take, after 50yrs, and still undecided .........

 

[Gulli]

dad used to reckon, if you ran young bulls with hfrs, you would get more hfrs than bulls, we did this for years, with dairy hfrs, and young hol bulls, and to be honest, we got 2/3rds hfrs, his reasoning was, females in nature, were the 'lesser' of the sexes, they just produced calves, but as you got towards the end of the breeding season, it was the fitest, and strongest bulls left, and it was those bulls that bred the bulls of the future. Not sure l totally agree, but we always got, and still do, more hfrs from young bulls. There does seem to be some logic there, natural selection, but whether it is, or isn't correct, l cannot say, undecided is my take, after 50yrs, and still undecided .........

Young bulls don't want to be producing competition for themselves

 

[Blaithin]

Gender is determined by the female.

Males deposit an equal number of X and Y gametes into the vagina. From there it’s a hostile obstacle course that the spermatozoa must traverse and different conditions can be less fatal to either the X or Y gametes. They show different swimming behaviour and different affects on their motility from various conditions. Fluid viscosity, pH, levels of elements, uterine contractions, temperature, etc all affect which gametes have better motility and are more successful.

Bulls don’t do anything except stick it in.

 

[martian]

How do you find the bulls interact in the non breeding season? Do you put them together or keep separate? I had thought if we were able to purchase say 3 yearling bulls at the same time they would grow up together and have their hierarchy sorted out so they wouldn’t fight later on in life, especially if they were never separated.

We try to run them together, they scrap a bit when first in but soon sort out who's boss. We once had two well matched bulls who grew up together and got on ok, but when we put them in the mob they spent the first fortnight knocking all hell out of each other, whilst ignoring all the lovely cows who were fluttering their eyes at them. Eventually one was declared loser and they could get on with the serious business of bonking.

I've just bought a nice two year old bull and introduced him to our two four-year-old smaller hybrid bulls who have never seriously argued with each other and have been out all winter. The new one is also a lovely peaceful animal, but they still felt honour-bound to bang heads together for a bit. The two year old even walked through two electric fences just so he could have a scrap (you could see him wince as the shocks registered, but being a bull he couldn't lose face). His mistake as it turned out, the smaller animals ganged up and he had to retire to a far corner to consider his position. I can't be doing with aggressive animals, I like them to teach each other manners.

 

[Highland Mule]

Gender is determined by the female.

Males deposit an equal number of X and Y gametes into the vagina. From there it’s a hostile obstacle course that the spermatozoa must traverse and different conditions can be less fatal to either the X or Y gametes. They show different swimming behaviour and different affects on their motility from various conditions. Fluid viscosity, pH, levels of elements, uterine contractions, temperature, etc all affect which gametes have better motility and are more successful.

Bulls don’t do anything except stick it in.

Yes and no. The male decides the time of service - early gives less of an advantage to the faster swimming sperm (the male ones) as they end up at the conception point before the egg. Slower sperm (female) get there later but aren’t tired out when the egg arrives. I’m convinced I get more females from young tups who are more eager and get the job done at the first sniff of a cycle.

 

[Gulli]

I stand by my statement despite the science others have posted

 

[Highland Mule]

I stand by my statement despite the science others have posted

Don’t confuse my theories with science!

 

[Blaithin]

Yes and no. The male decides the time of service - early gives less of an advantage to the faster swimming sperm (the male ones) as they end up at the conception point before the egg. Slower sperm (female) get there later but aren’t tired out when the egg arrives. I’m convinced I get more females from young tups who are more eager and get the job done at the first sniff of a cycle.

Ah yeah… but is the result of that timing not based on… the female?

Wouldn’t matter what time the boys get it done if the females conditions were static. Especially since many do multiple breedings which would deposit fresh Y gametes to race the slower Xs.

And quick on the draw boys Xs still have to battle through other conditions even if they arrive and ovulation hasn’t occurred yet. Early service might increase the chance of an X but it doesn’t guarantee it. Still hostile obstacles at play.

 

[Highland Mule]

Ah yeah… but is the result of that timing not based on… the female?

You know the joke about the old bull taking his time to go down the field. Sure the female might be the one cycling but a young male with a. Keener sense of smell will be maybe half a day ahead if he’s rushing around the flock/ herd.

That’s my theory anyway.

 

[Woolless]

Just having a look through this thread again. I'm wondering if it would work in a closed flock of, say, 100 with perhaps the five best tup lambs mated with the flock each year? Or maybe a few more than that would be required to maintain a bit of genetic diversity?

 

[Jonny B88]

I suppose a question is how do you determine your best tup lambs?

Just having a look through this thread again. I'm wondering if it would work in a closed flock of, say, 100 with perhaps the five best tup lambs mated with the flock each year? Or maybe a few more than that would be required to maintain a bit of genetic diversity?

 

[Woolless]

I suppose a question is how do you determine your best tup lambs?

They are currently fully performance recorded, so by a combination of EBVs, easy care traits and conformation. However, I am considering cutting the sheep back and having an easier life which may mean not recording them properly any more.

 

[egbert]

I think I'm right to say it simply means running everything together at bulling time. In other words, last year's bull calves would be running alongside the stock bulls in with all the cows/heifers. I vaguely remember reading or watching a video about it some time ago. I believe cattle run on this system become highly seasonal breeders and there's almost a rut for three or four weeks. The reasoning was that wild herds don't get inbred.

Might be good for the soil but my inner livestock nerd is panicking at the thought of all that uncontrolled breeding!

I'm not sure that tallies with Chillingham cattle's behaviour.....there, a top bull is the boss.

Running several stock bulls together? I've done that plenty, but last years entires too? No thanks.....

 

[egbert]

Just having a look through this thread again. I'm wondering if it would work in a closed flock of, say, 100 with perhaps the five best tup lambs mated with the flock each year? Or maybe a few more than that would be required to maintain a bit of genetic diversity?

If it's randomly using the boys....
I was running 400 NCC ewes backalong, and working rams beyond their 'safe' inbreeding dates.
I'd worked out that in their 3rd year - all things being even- they'd only meet 2 of the daughters. It went up exponentially thereafter....but never seemed to be an issue.
And I've often used blackie tups on and on until they croak....one must've been meeting granddaughters. again, never saw problems.

Cattle aren't as safe though- I've always understood, and seen.
You'll run into problems sooners than sheep. Fertility seems to be an issue quickly.
It may be just coincidence. give me another 2-3 lifetimes and I'll tell you some more!