dirty harry
Member
- Location
- east of east midlands!
You either pay for warranty or repairs
&if it’s got pistons or tits it’ll go wrong.....!!
&if it’s got pistons or tits it’ll go wrong.....!!
Optimum hours to change
- Thread starter Clive
- Start date
The biggest variable that has the biggest influence on longevity is the driver.
Take two polar opposites here:
Tractor one
Bought new in 2006, with 3yr 2400hr warranty. Worked very very hard for first four years 6000hrs (it had been so hot for so long that the little plastic plugs in the side of the engine block that fill unused threaded holes had melted and run down the side of the engine!) Bit easier life for the next 4000hrs, but still clocked nearly 1000hrs/yr. Last two years a bit easier time, just spraying, fert spreading and planting spuds. lots of road work.
It left this spring with 12400hrs after 11.5yrs, and knackered brakes (its originals), breathing fairly hard and and intermittent electrical issue with the hydraulics (not needed on the trailed sprayer so didn't get fixed as quick as normal) We have a general policy of doing the little jobs before they become big ones, and it was always serviced according to the mfr's service schedule on time.
Repair costs about 40p/clock hour. Original tyres, at min 70% (wore three sets of front rowcrops and a set of rears out though!) Bought for £45500, sold for £12000. 33500/12400=£2.70/hr.
Fair enough, it needed about 15p/hr more in repairs when it left, but that was covered by its selling price. Driven by me most of its life. £3.10/hr
Tractor two
Bought new in 2008, again with 3yr 2400hr warranty. Bigger tractor than the above, so more on top of its work, but still worked fairly hard, but by more drivers. Similar workload for most of its life. Repair costs just over £4/hr!! Downtime uncalcuably high. Bought for £48000, sold for £15000 in 2015, 6.5yrs old, 7000hrs. Original tyres, though it had had a wheel swap with another tractor that left before it. £48000 - 15000 / 7000 = £4.70/hr + repairs = £8.70/hr
Current front liners both bought new, with extended warranty of 5yrs & 6000hrs. November 13 version currently on 5100ish hrs, it'll likely hit 6000 by the time the warranty runs out. I probably should of changed it this spring, but other priorities dictated I didn't. It will no doubt take a hit, currently plan on running it to about 8000hrs.
My plan was to run the two for 6yrs, pay for them, over 3yrs, so theres always a payment, but only for one tractor at a time. What has often prevented this is fleet expansion - a potential trade in has stayed, and had a second hand mate bought to increase capacity/cover more work, which has at times meant an aged fleet, and bigger gaps to a new replacement.
Cheapest two here are the MF3075 and JCB 530.
1994 MF 3075 bought for £8250 with 3600hrs in 2003. Had a clutch,, hydraulic pump, water pump and radiator, and an odd minor thing or two, say £3k of repairs. Worth maybe £6k now, with 10400hrs under its belt.
8250-6000+3000/(10400-3600)=77p/hr
2001 JCB 530/70, bought for £27000 in 2003 with 1700hrs. Now on 10600, worth maybe £12k. Minimal running costs, its been very little bother at all. had 3 sets of tyres at 2 grand a set though. Repairs wont be 3k. £27000-12000+6000+3000/(10600-1700)= £2.70/hr The tyres make up a quarter of the costs!
We always used to change them at 4yo, but as the business has grown, so has the fleet, and the hours per year. As a general rule, if machines are still doing their job perfectly well, and not costing a fortune in unreliability, they will stay longer. Rarely is anything ever changed for shinier paint these days. Occasionally this bites us, and sometimes (like tractor two above) we should of got rid a long time before we did (that one in particular had big repairs in warranty) and some ought to of stayed longer to let a newer, but more unreliable machine leave sooner.
My conclusion - buy as new as poss and keep as long as poss, provided reliability is good, otherwise trade asap.
I'm a big believer in gut feel - on the odd time I've acted against it, I've usually got it wrong.
Take two polar opposites here:
Tractor one
Bought new in 2006, with 3yr 2400hr warranty. Worked very very hard for first four years 6000hrs (it had been so hot for so long that the little plastic plugs in the side of the engine block that fill unused threaded holes had melted and run down the side of the engine!) Bit easier life for the next 4000hrs, but still clocked nearly 1000hrs/yr. Last two years a bit easier time, just spraying, fert spreading and planting spuds. lots of road work.
It left this spring with 12400hrs after 11.5yrs, and knackered brakes (its originals), breathing fairly hard and and intermittent electrical issue with the hydraulics (not needed on the trailed sprayer so didn't get fixed as quick as normal) We have a general policy of doing the little jobs before they become big ones, and it was always serviced according to the mfr's service schedule on time.
Repair costs about 40p/clock hour. Original tyres, at min 70% (wore three sets of front rowcrops and a set of rears out though!) Bought for £45500, sold for £12000. 33500/12400=£2.70/hr.
Fair enough, it needed about 15p/hr more in repairs when it left, but that was covered by its selling price. Driven by me most of its life. £3.10/hr
Tractor two
Bought new in 2008, again with 3yr 2400hr warranty. Bigger tractor than the above, so more on top of its work, but still worked fairly hard, but by more drivers. Similar workload for most of its life. Repair costs just over £4/hr!! Downtime uncalcuably high. Bought for £48000, sold for £15000 in 2015, 6.5yrs old, 7000hrs. Original tyres, though it had had a wheel swap with another tractor that left before it. £48000 - 15000 / 7000 = £4.70/hr + repairs = £8.70/hr
Current front liners both bought new, with extended warranty of 5yrs & 6000hrs. November 13 version currently on 5100ish hrs, it'll likely hit 6000 by the time the warranty runs out. I probably should of changed it this spring, but other priorities dictated I didn't. It will no doubt take a hit, currently plan on running it to about 8000hrs.
My plan was to run the two for 6yrs, pay for them, over 3yrs, so theres always a payment, but only for one tractor at a time. What has often prevented this is fleet expansion - a potential trade in has stayed, and had a second hand mate bought to increase capacity/cover more work, which has at times meant an aged fleet, and bigger gaps to a new replacement.
Cheapest two here are the MF3075 and JCB 530.
1994 MF 3075 bought for £8250 with 3600hrs in 2003. Had a clutch,, hydraulic pump, water pump and radiator, and an odd minor thing or two, say £3k of repairs. Worth maybe £6k now, with 10400hrs under its belt.
8250-6000+3000/(10400-3600)=77p/hr
2001 JCB 530/70, bought for £27000 in 2003 with 1700hrs. Now on 10600, worth maybe £12k. Minimal running costs, its been very little bother at all. had 3 sets of tyres at 2 grand a set though. Repairs wont be 3k. £27000-12000+6000+3000/(10600-1700)= £2.70/hr The tyres make up a quarter of the costs!
We always used to change them at 4yo, but as the business has grown, so has the fleet, and the hours per year. As a general rule, if machines are still doing their job perfectly well, and not costing a fortune in unreliability, they will stay longer. Rarely is anything ever changed for shinier paint these days. Occasionally this bites us, and sometimes (like tractor two above) we should of got rid a long time before we did (that one in particular had big repairs in warranty) and some ought to of stayed longer to let a newer, but more unreliable machine leave sooner.
My conclusion - buy as new as poss and keep as long as poss, provided reliability is good, otherwise trade asap.
I'm a big believer in gut feel - on the odd time I've acted against it, I've usually got it wrong.
kiwi pom
Member
- Location
- canterbury NZ
I'd say it was an individual thing for each business, there's just too many variables.
The last company I worked for ran nearly 600 trucks and they could never really decide what was best, although the biggest factor for them was the lack of second hand market.
Running a large fleet did give them a good average cost of ownership though, something I don't think a lot of farmers can do.
Farmer A might take his 3 tractors to 10 000 hours with just a couple of turbos and a hydraulic pump. Farmer B not so lucky and needs a new engine and 2 transmission rebuilds. So they're both going to have different ideas on replacement.
Farmer B could be remapping his tractors and thrashing them to death so is better off 'getting shut' at 3000 hours.
Farmer A might buy the right machine to start with and have/be a trained mechanic.
Every one's different.
As you've said on here @Clive one farmer may get a better deal buying and selling than other so different again.
The last company I worked for ran nearly 600 trucks and they could never really decide what was best, although the biggest factor for them was the lack of second hand market.
Running a large fleet did give them a good average cost of ownership though, something I don't think a lot of farmers can do.
Farmer A might take his 3 tractors to 10 000 hours with just a couple of turbos and a hydraulic pump. Farmer B not so lucky and needs a new engine and 2 transmission rebuilds. So they're both going to have different ideas on replacement.
Farmer B could be remapping his tractors and thrashing them to death so is better off 'getting shut' at 3000 hours.
Farmer A might buy the right machine to start with and have/be a trained mechanic.
Every one's different.
As you've said on here @Clive one farmer may get a better deal buying and selling than other so different again.
kiwi pom
Member
- Location
- canterbury NZ
Good post.
I think the work they do effects reliability too. Keep them hot, with long days they do better than stop/start machines that always have cold engines etc.
Agree with the driver thing. With the trucks you could often tell which ones would give the most trouble by the team of drivers assigned to it.
The ones that kept the same 'team' for their life tended to be better than those that got moved around a lot.
I wouldn't say so, not in a big way anyway. At least half the cost of tyres will be recouped in the residual value usually. ie say a set of tyres cost 5000, at say 80% tread, they'll add at least 2 - 3k to a trade in (on say a 200hp tractor) compared to the same machine on 10% tyres. Not a biggy - though obviously it wouldn't be wise to fit a new set in the season just pre sale
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
The problem now with tractors is reliability of minor electrical components that need A fitter with a programme to fit and stop a tractor working
Half a day lost
Op if it’s a good one 12000 hours
Half a day lost
Op if it’s a good one 12000 hours
Whereas I go for older, mechanically simple / mimimal electrics that have done their depreciation somewhere else. There is nothing fancy about a set of discs and a press, nor a subsoiler, and there neednt be for the machine that lugs them around. Power down, minimal electrics. Just keep chugging away. I'd love a new one thats all fancy, but Id rather cash in the bank.
- Location
- Hampshire
Be interesting to compare with commercial HGV fleets. They seem to run lorries into many hundreds of thousands of miles, accepting replacement engines and gearboxes as part of life. Ag seems to feel replacement is needed when the latest fad is launched.
An old quadtrac could generate a serous bill though if you got unlucky ?
What’s the latest fad though ? In tractors I don’t think a lot has really changed for a decade now ?
Auto steer maybe ? But that can be retro fitted
Until the robots become comercial I can’t see much on the horizon to be good reason to change
Strip it for parts.
New engine for one isnt overly dear. Certainly not compared to a new machine. Might have to change a track next year but then we have had it for 10 years. It's an engine, gearbox and tracks. Biggest job is changing the oil in the hubs.
Yes, this is a must. EZ-Steer paid for itself many times over.
If it's a tractor famous for head gasket going , it's nothing to do with how it was minded or driven.
HGV's arn't much different to be honest. Generally speaking the bigger the engine, the longer it lasts. A 2litre compact tractor engine is knackered at 5000hrs. 4litre 4cyl is about tired at 10,000hrs. A 7litre 6cyl tractor engine will do a bit more, maybe 14000? a 12litre truck engine 20,000hrs +
Theres good and bad of everything - take two similar trucks we had a few years back, a year apart in age. One ran to 1.6million km's with very little bother. It started jumping out of gear, needed a respray, and had a bit of cab corrosion creeping in, so while export demand was high, we sold it.
Its contemporary was costing a fortune by the time it hit 600,000kms, and we could see no end to its moneypit tendencies, so it was sold early. It went to Malaysia iirc.
Roughly speaking 1m Km = 250000hrs We have been known to replace gearboxes, but not often, and odd selector, a few clutches, but not many complete boxes. Diffs tend to be the first to let go. We've just sold an 800,000km Scania thats had 3 diffs, but otherwise very little, but has a big list pending if we were to run it another year. Sometimes they cost a little bit regularly over a long time, sometimes they run for years then need a fortune spending in a short time. Drivers have a big effect on longevity, as does the type of work.
Years ago, a diff lock was the must have. Then it was spool valves. Then safety cabs. Then Power steering. Then 4wd. Then Air con. Then clutchless gears. Then front linkage. Then suspension. Then vario. then autosteer. Whats next? Electric power? Will farming go full circle and go back to running umpteen smaller, simpler tractors to employ more folk living simpler lives to save the planet? Who knows
kiwi pom
Member
- Location
- canterbury NZ
If your lucky it wont. I think some people are just scared of breakdowns to the point they spend thousands changing for no reason.
What's a brand new quadtrac cost? How much is a new engine compared to what it would cost to change.
Something big could cause a headache if it broke at a bad time I suppose because a replacement would be hard to find but if a run of the mill 200hp tractor went down at harvest I bet you could have a replacement take over in a couple of hours?
- Location
- South West
If you have classic tractor the Massey 6160 that's clocked 10000 hours in the last 4 years looks to have been a bargain!!!!
Chae1
Member
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
It has for us. 7200 to replace all the tyres on one of our tractors at 7400 hours. Tractor only worth around 30k so a third of its value in tyres.
Grassman
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
Heck