Total Lockdown?

[beardface]

So by now everyone knows their risk so if you are a fat diabetic 65 year old you'd better stay at home however if you are a healthy active 7 year old keen to learn and wanting social interaction you have to stay at home because you might infect someone who possibly until now hasn't thought their health really is their responsibility. Surely at some point in all of this someone in some position of responsibility has to stand up in front of a big chart on national TV and point at it and say ' Grandma and Grandad you know you're in trouble but if you're fat or diabetic or asthmatic or have a heart condition or whatever you're chances of dying are increased by X% so stay inside if you're in these group's and to the rest of the population you say here's your risk level you know the score by now off you go.

I saw an elderly fat woman in a wheelchair in my local tesco over Xmas with a mask only covering her mouth at the busiest week over Xmas. She was with another overweight elderly relative. Plus what appeared to be grand spawn. I just thought "your the f***ing problem".

 

[Ukjay]

Interesting reading and comparisons..

Data can be so misleading if you simply follow the media and Government speel, or simply use %'s as measurements, when the other data to show what the information relates to is being ommitted..

NHS hospital bed numbers

The number of hospital beds in England has more than halved over the past 30 years. This explainer looks at data on hospital beds, explores the drivers underpinning the changes it shows, and considers whether further reductions to bed numbers are realistic.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

And for local area.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2019-07/task-and-finish-group-on-critical-care-final-report_0.pdf

This one is from 2016, and nothing really appears to have improved imho...

The stark facts that show our intensive care units are 'too full'

The Welsh Government has issued a new report into the state of critical care units in Wales

www.walesonline.co.uk

Oh, and lets not forget that the population has grown circa X% overall from when some of that data was put out there and the popultion is living longer so the demand for critical care will also have increased... Just saying..

 

[Lowland1]

I saw an elderly fat woman in a wheelchair in my local tesco over Xmas with a mask only covering her mouth at the busiest week over Xmas. She was with another overweight elderly relative. Plus what appeared to be grand spawn. I just thought "your the f***ing problem".

Last year my Dad spent several months in hospital and you really see why the NHS is in a mess everyday going into the hospital you'd meet patients hooked up to drips in the entrance puffing away on cigarettes or stuffing their faces with pizza a lot of them too fat to move freely. If you run your car without oil and it blows up you have to replace the engine or get it fixed it costs you money but you probably learn to check the oil in future. The NHS keeps fixing people free of charge and then they more often than not carry on as before. Start charging people and see what happens I reckon they might soon learn their lessons. My Dad was 80 and had a heart attack it happens for sure but it was partially his fault as he thought he could eat like he used to when he was working ( he stopped about 3 years previously) but you don't need the same calories to sit in the chair and watch cricket. The NHS saved him because that's the fun bit of medicine but the aftercare was rubbish.
This is self inflicted and we are just digging deeper and deeper holes which get harder and harder to get out of.

 

[ollie989898]

So by now everyone knows their risk so if you are a fat diabetic 65 year old you'd better stay at home however if you are a healthy active 7 year old keen to learn and wanting social interaction you have to stay at home because you might infect someone who possibly until now hasn't thought their health really is their responsibility. Surely at some point in all of this someone in some position of responsibility has to stand up in front of a big chart on national TV and point at it and say ' Grandma and Grandad you know you're in trouble but if you're fat or diabetic or asthmatic or have a heart condition or whatever you're chances of dying are increased by X% so stay inside if you're in these group's and to the rest of the population you say here's your risk level you know the score by now off you go.

Unfortunately the virus is as much political as it is medical. I've said this before.

It does remain the case that a small portion of infected individuals can suffer more serious effects from the virus beyond the typical pneumonia and respiratory distress, instead having a cytokine storm or coagulopathies that can damage other organs. As much as the statistics say, no one can stand up and say that anyone in particular is truly safe from the virus.

 

[beardface]

Unfortunately the virus is as much political as it is medical. I've said this before.

It does remain the case that a small portion of infected individuals can suffer more serious effects from the virus beyond the typical pneumonia and respiratory distress, instead having a cytokine storm or coagulopathies that can damage other organs. As much as the statistics say, no one can stand up and say that anyone in particular is truly safe from the virus.

But we can all stand up and accept that we are all responsible for its spread and for our own health

 

[ollie989898]

But ollie,

There lies the issue in all the misinformation being spread. People appear not to be dying from pre existing conditions - they are dying from Covid... Allegedly.

If the media and news were locked down and prohibited from casting their own take on what is going on, and could only report out on medically sanctioned reports of the facts etc - I personally feel we would be in a far better place right now.

You only need to read comments on here, and how people interpret what is going on to realise things can get twisted, so it is obvious the news and media will do it far worse.

Even immediately after the report from the PM, you could clearly hear their spin and assumptions in the newsreader outputs... It's a joke that they are allowed to continue to do this in a situation like we are in.

A lot of people are gullible and take verbatim what they say, panic, resentment etc come off the back of it and we spiral out of control...

The way the UK is recording covid deaths to my mind seems very odd but I don't know why it is done or what alternative there is. I have doubts about the true accuracy and utility of many of the statistics presented in the media when it comes to each individual country. I do not believe that Germany, with it's larger population than many European countries, can be directly compared with say, France, Germany or Spain. If Germany had some miraculous therapy or something, it would be in the press. I know their population is, on balance, slightly younger than many European countries though.

I don't think the way the UK populace is reacting surprises any of us here that much. On New Years eve crowds were gathering various places, many maskless, I guess because they either don't care or people believe they are somehow immune if they are outdoors.

I agree that the government guidance has been unclear at times. The handwashing campaign for example, no one seems to have twigged that the major source of infection is from contacting surfaces used by other people. The virus is present in the faecal matter of many infected people too, so public/communal loos, door handles and the like are all potential sources of infection. I don't watch the news often but I don't believe I have heard the government mention cleaning and hygiene in the context of covid? This all came to my attention at work because senior management began asking us to clean contact surfaces, including door handles etc, with disinfectant or alcohol based wipes.

 

[ollie989898]

But we can all stand up and accept that we are all responsible for its spread and for our own health

In a way you already are responsible for your own health. But given the infectious nature of the virus, you are potentially at risk of spreading it to vulnerable people and thus infecting people who are most at risk. I recognised at the outset that wearing a mask was not for my own protection but for that of others.

It's like me attending my local pub in the summer. As far as I know, I'm healthy and have no pre-existing conditions. What I do not know is who else will be there and what their health is like. I have utterly no desire to infect anyone else in this village, and given the environment in which I work, it focuses my mind knowing that of the people who frequent it, it is likely I'm one of the people who could well bring the virus into the community.

 

[Ukjay]

The way the UK is recording covid deaths to my mind seems very odd but I don't know why it is done or what alternative there is. I have doubts about the true accuracy and utility of many of the statistics presented in the media when it comes to each individual country. I do not believe that Germany, with it's larger population than many European countries, can be directly compared with say, France, Germany or Spain. If Germany had some miraculous therapy or something, it would be in the press. I know their population is, on balance, slightly younger than many European countries though.

I don't think the way the UK populace is reacting surprises any of us here that much. On New Years eve crowds were gathering various places, many maskless, I guess because they either don't care or people believe they are somehow immune if they are outdoors.

I agree that the government guidance has been unclear at times. The handwashing campaign for example, no one seems to have twigged that the major source of infection is from contacting surfaces used by other people. The virus is present in the faecal matter of many infected people too, so public/communal loos, door handles and the like are all potential sources of infection. I don't watch the news often but I don't believe I have heard the government mention cleaning and hygiene in the context of covid? This all came to my attention at work because senior management began asking us to clean contact surfaces, including door handles etc, with disinfectant or alcohol based wipes.

I believe we would find that Germany is reporting actual death causes, not as we are, everything being related to covid it seems.
The real issue for me - and this has stemmed from decades of abuse and self indulgence of the powers that be - is that it is not the virus that is the real concern for them if they would grow some balls and admit it - but more that they have now been found out that NHS has not been managed effectively enough to match the ever increasing population, and increase in life expectancy we are seeing today.

Some may say that it is fortunate that the fertility rate is and has been declining for decades even in the UK, so the world will level itself out - or we will see the next mass extinction to allow the world to reset its clock and start over..

 

[M-J-G]

Boris was so definite yesterday on TV about schools being utterly safe, and young people being utterly safe.
24 hours later he’s closing them down!
What’s the story?

The same story as him not staying at home and being in a hospital when there was no need for him to be there, just hours before he decides on a national lockdown.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[essex man]

someone runs to catch a bus, they are fat/75 years old and die from a heart attack.
Another person runs for a bus, fit and healthy....

What did the first person die of?
If we saying covid causes deaths then we'd better say running for the bus causes death and ban running cos it kills people.

If healthy people under 60 are not dying of covid, which they are not, then it is not a killer virus.
People are dying with covid because of the other factors.

 

[Lowland1]

I believe we would find that Germany is reporting actual death causes, not as we are, everything being related to covid it seems.
The real issue for me - and this has stemmed from decades of abuse and self indulgence of the powers that be - is that it is not the virus that is the real concern for them if they would grow some balls and admit it - but more that they have now been found out that NHS has not been managed effectively enough to match the ever increasing population, and increase in life expectancy we are seeing today.

Some may say that it is fortunate that the fertility rate is and has been declining for decades even in the UK, so the world will level itself out - or we will see the next mass extinction to allow the world to reset its clock and start over..

And there you have it We are messing everything up because the beloved NHS has been run into the ground well not exactly run into the ground but totally mismanaged. It doesn’t matter how much money you pump in they will still need more because it’s a state institution accountable to no one. A sacred cow because no one thinks they should pay for their healthcare or pay attention to their health. In life you generally get what you pay for and free healthcare is an example of that.

 

[hoff135]

I admit to being anti lockdown but pro common sense. I saw plenty household mixing over the festive which wasnt meant to happen. There was no need to me mixing in houses for no good reason, common sense would tell you that.

If people are claiming they are cracking up because they cant hug their family members then i think they need to seriously evaluate themselves and what is actually classed as hardship. Perhaps they should read some history books and find out what many people endured in the past and they might gain some perspective.

There were plenty older folks visiting neighbours over the past couple of weeks, if they end up on a trolly waiting for care in the next week or 2 then who have they to blame but themselves?

 

[ollie989898]

I believe we would find that Germany is reporting actual death causes, not as we are, everything being related to covid it seems.
The real issue for me - and this has stemmed from decades of abuse and self indulgence of the powers that be - is that it is not the virus that is the real concern for them if they would grow some balls and admit it - but more that they have now been found out that NHS has not been managed effectively enough to match the ever increasing population, and increase in life expectancy we are seeing today.

Some may say that it is fortunate that the fertility rate is and has been declining for decades even in the UK, so the world will level itself out - or we will see the next mass extinction to allow the world to reset its clock and start over..

Let's be honest- few national healthcare providers in the world were 100% prepared or ready for this epidemic, not even in America where the average spend per head is more than double the going rate of European countries. Healthcare systems are geared up for their typical caseloads: moderate numbers of extremely diverse patients/conditions. Few are geared up for huge numbers of people with one particular complaint caused by a novel virus. Many of them are tested by seasonal influenza epidemics, they just do their best with the resources available.

 

[essex man]

The father of a friend of mine died eighteen months ago, he was in a nursing home.
It was explained to my friend that his lungs got "wet" as a reaction to a virus ("just common cold often")
"This is how a lot of them go in the end now" he was told.
Their immune systems don't function correctly and they flood their own lungs.
Under covid law, my friend's father died of a nasty killer virus.
At least, since it was 2019, he had a proper funeral.

 

[Ukjay]

Let's be honest- few national healthcare providers in the world were 100% prepared or ready for this epidemic, not even in America where the average spend per head is more than double the going rate of European countries. Healthcare systems are geared up for their typical caseloads: moderate numbers of extremely diverse patients/conditions. Few are geared up for huge numbers of people with one particular complaint caused by a novel virus. Many of them are tested by seasonal influenza epidemics, they just do their best with the resources available.

I have been honest and I have thrown out some information that is not really palatable I suppose, whereby sadly; the data shows our leaders are chosing to hide what to me is the elephant in the closet for some reason, and have done for years for that matter; therefore one cannot simply state that we gear up to typical caseloads and believe that to be true, when clearly the demand has been noted to them as falling further behind the demads being placed upon the systems demand year on year...
Sadly, all the staff can do is their best with what they have been given.. and a lot of them have been fighting a losing battle for decades trying to get more resources etc - as it continues to fall on deaf ears.

Data is showing that we struggle to cover our basic needs placed upon the system through our visible aging population and increased demand for critical care this obviously places on us simply through the population increase alone - so is it any suprise that we will struggle to manage the impact from this virus?
No, it seriously isn't!
Old people in the powers that be's mind; must obviously a burden to the NHS (and society I would assume) - but here we are; all locked up like bloody animals saying we need to protect the older generation - so how the hell does that work then?

On one hand they have allowed the NHS to dwindle into what it is today - being not able to cope with peaks as it runs at high occupancy rates in winter periods every year, whilst visibly knowing there will be / is a growing need for high dependancy care for aging people, our care homes for the elderly are simply money spinners for the ones that run them offereing poor care and respect for the people who end up in them (on the whole - some may be good, I hope), then now, they come out as being all caring and loving, claiming we want to protect them at all costs - its B0LL_0cks the lot if it.
Horsefeed for the minions as we obviously believe everything they say!!

Call me cynical - but this sh!t is getting real ugly out there, and this hypocarcy is starting to make people resent being shackled by the ones who have taken poor decisions over the years and is at the significant cost to the population.

We have not been able to effectively manage our requirements for years without putting the system into overload and high level of utilisation of critical care beds vs that of the other countires in terms of high dependancy beds - so it is clear that someone, somewhere; made those decisions to not increase the investment into the more effective channels or sort out the missmanagement of funding (that goes into their mates pockets) which should have been better utilised to increase capacity through making the necessary changes needed, and more importantly; have continued to allow the NHS to be decimated and continue to be driven into the ground through poor managment of funds.

All this time, they have not had a loss of wage or been impacted financially as a result - whilst working families continue to lose their homes, their health and mental well being...

 

[ollie989898]

The father of a friend of mine died eighteen months ago, he was in a nursing home.
It was explained to my friend that his lungs got "wet" as a reaction to a virus ("just common cold often")
"This is how a lot of them go in the end now" he was told.
Their immune systems don't function correctly and they flood their own lungs.
Under covid law, my friend's father died of a nasty killer virus.
At least, since it was 2019, he had a proper funeral.

Pneumonia. Unfortunately there are limits to what can be done for people with this condition when it is particularly acute. A lot of the interventions used are pretty invasive and not all elderly people want to be pulled or prodded about. I can understand that.

 

[jendan]

Theres been no more cases at my wife's school than in the general population. Its a myth. University students are super spreaders as they were mixing with more people at the beginning of their term.

Its not a myth where i live.All of the cases are being traced back to the schools.

 

[The Agrarian]

That's true. I often heard my mum say that the old people called pneumonia 'the old man's saviour', i.e. probably assumed to be prostrate cancer sufferers who were put out of their misery by an infection. It's always been the way.

But, it's not always the fault of older people when they catch Covid. In fact, mostly the responsibility of the younger people around them. For example, this week my elderly mother, whom I am not visiting despite living six hundred yards away from, told me that she and dad had a visit from a man from church, who was dropping in the announcements bulletin and generally being nice. No mask either. I was fuming. My parents are 80 and don't have the presence of mind to tell him to retreat. Church guidelines are for no unnecessary visits. Now I'll be putting a sign up on their back door.

 

[essex man]

Pneumonia. Unfortunately there are limits to what can be done for people with this condition when it is particularly acute. A lot of the interventions used are pretty invasive and not all elderly people want to be pulled or prodded about. I can understand that.

Yes, covid doing same thing, causing pneumonia

 

[essex man]

Pneumonia is inflammation of the lungs, can be caused by a number of factors including common cold, covid, influenza..
Old people whose immune systems don't function correctly will flood their lungs in response and die.