What to look in a hogget ram

[Agri]

I am buying a hogget ram and am wondering what to check. Also what do I do to prepare my first time lambers for lambing.

 

[Paul E]

Bollox x2.
End.
Breed type to suit.

 

[devonbrion1998]

well grown, shapely, with a good pair of plums

 

[Ysgythan]

Basics

Teeth on pad
balls (2) - not too soft, not too hard, not too small
Legs - can he walk, are there any obvious deformities
Back - a level top, no dips or humps
Shoulder and brisket - not too deep or broad, a wedge shape (improving as he goes back)
Condition - you want them fighting fit. Not too fat, not too thin. Consider where he’s come from and how he’s been managed.
Spark/character - he’s got to look like he means business and is up to the job.

extras
skin - tightness/peel to taste
Shape - to taste
EBVs - if your that way inclined

 

[Longlowdog]

Everything noted above and with all these attributes being from a grass reared system. A wee bit of creep in March is one thing if he's from the wild North but otherwise you want to see how that lamb's progeny will do on grass for you. There is also a world of difference between grass reared and forage reared. Some lambs might never have seen a feed sack but could have been on rocket fuel forage mixes that your lambs would never benefit from so your vision is skewed by buying a well fed animal for a low input system.

 

[TexelBen]

Everything noted above and with all these attributes being from a grass reared system. A wee bit of creep in March is one thing if he's from the wild North but otherwise you want to see how that lamb's progeny will do on grass for you. There is also a world of difference between grass reared and forage reared. Some lambs might never have seen a feed sack but could have been on rocket fuel forage mixes that your lambs would never benefit from so your vision is skewed by buying a well fed animal for a low input system.

Brilliant point, never really thought about it like that

 

[neilo]

Everything noted above and with all these attributes being from a grass reared system. A wee bit of creep in March is one thing if he's from the wild North but otherwise you want to see how that lamb's progeny will do on grass for you. There is also a world of difference between grass reared and forage reared. Some lambs might never have seen a feed sack but could have been on rocket fuel forage mixes that your lambs would never benefit from so your vision is skewed by buying a well fed animal for a low input system.

Is one of these ‘rocket fuel forage mixes’ of which you speak, any better than well managed grass? Say grass that’s kept in the perfect productive state by judicious use of a topper?

When I have been able to winter rams on grass, any old grass, they have always done far better than when I rear them on forage crops. Forage crops are here only because I don’t have access to sufficient grass over winter. I would much sooner run the growing rams over some grassland over winter.

The whole concentrate vs forage arguement is about building a rumen, so that the animals are developed in such a way that they can go on to thrive on forage. The type of forage matters little in that respect, although some well managed forages will obviously do them better than others.

 

[Longlowdog]

@neilo, it sure wasn't a dig at you. I see frequent Facebook pictures of young pedigree sheep being introduced to fields of rocket fuel in early summer when nearby fields are lush and green and then advertised as 'outdoor forage reared'. Surely high protein forage mixes of brassicas, legumes etc must add a lift to stock that even the best maintained grass of the finest provenance cannot compete with?
I personally creep all my sheep for 6-8 weeks from birth as my grass is scarcely growing and I was told at a sheep group meeting it improves gut flora and fauna. I'm all for generating the highest performance in my sheep but personally feel that summer forage is not the same as summer grass. My tup lambs get nothing except grass from a couple of months old till sold as shearlings unless the snow covers the fields and they threaten to go backwards. I have a firm belief in the spring bounce after winter inappetence.

 

[andybk]

@neilo, it sure wasn't a dig at you. I see frequent Facebook pictures of young pedigree sheep being introduced to fields of rocket fuel in early summer when nearby fields are lush and green and then advertised as 'outdoor forage reared'. Surely high protein forage mixes of brassicas, legumes etc must add a lift to stock that even the best maintained grass of the finest provenance cannot compete with?
I personally creep all my sheep for 6-8 weeks from birth as my grass is scarcely growing and I was told at a sheep group meeting it improves gut flora and fauna. I'm all for generating the highest performance in my sheep but personally feel that summer forage is not the same as summer grass. My tup lambs get nothing except grass from a couple of months old till sold as shearlings unless the snow covers the fields and they threaten to go backwards. I have a firm belief in the spring bounce after winter inappetence.

thats about it , though most of the shearling men around here , will graze keep till february then ad lib untill sale , Im like you in that compensatory growth in may / june usually makes up for it , its not unusual to have rams put on 10-20+kg in a a couple of months , but need watching as soon as clover flowers

 

[neilo]

@neilo, it sure wasn't a dig at you. I see frequent Facebook pictures of young pedigree sheep being introduced to fields of rocket fuel in early summer when nearby fields are lush and green and then advertised as 'outdoor forage reared'. Surely high protein forage mixes of brassicas, legumes etc must add a lift to stock that even the best maintained grass of the finest provenance cannot compete with?
I personally creep all my sheep for 6-8 weeks from birth as my grass is scarcely growing and I was told at a sheep group meeting it improves gut flora and fauna. I'm all for generating the highest performance in my sheep but personally feel that summer forage is not the same as summer grass. My tup lambs get nothing except grass from a couple of months old till sold as shearlings unless the snow covers the fields and they threaten to go backwards. I have a firm belief in the spring bounce after winter inappetence.

Young grass, kept in a vegetative by grazing management and/or topping, is as good nutritionally as any forage crop that I’ve seen. ME will be 11.5-12 Mj and CP 20%+. Absolute rocket fuel if you can keep it in that state.

 

[Bald n Grumpy]

I am buying a hogget ram and am wondering what to check. Also what do I do to prepare my first time lambers for lambing.

Go out and find the most ugly overfed ram with the biggest head and legs you can find if you go to auction be prepared to bid hard as everyone else will want it as well. This is how a lot buy their rams. Joking aside Ysgythan has got it pretty well covered in his reply

 

[Ysgythan]

Brilliant point, never really thought about it like that

Except it is and it isn’t. It is in that it is a very good idea to look to buy stock from a harder place than yours and with a gear spare, especially stores and females.

It isn’t in that I don’t accept the simple premise that anything but grass is somehow magic, either creating potential that doesn’t exist or destroying it. The same individuals will shine on the same farm whatever they’re fed. The problem comes in buying 20 or 8 month old tups on a first impression basis without doing any research.

Pedigree breeders have an altogether tougher job of this. They however will do their research.

 

[Longlowdog]

Okay, actual genuine question.
Why do folk grow fields of summer grazed Typon etc when they have a field of verdant grass next door?

 

[andybk]

Okay, actual genuine question.
Why do folk grow fields of summer grazed Typon etc when they have a field of verdant grass next door?

grass runs out of energy / prot when it seeds is very difficult to maintain quality into june , Kale (typhon / turnip is a brassica) often grown for use mid - late summer highly palatable energy / prot and natural oestrogens (phytoloestrogens) that give that finished / touch shine very easily ,effect soon wears off after sale .Ive bought a few kale fed ones that looked stunners , didnt melt much but looked decidedly average 3 months later lol

 

[Longlowdog]

I couldn't imagine spending money to feed lambs when I never let my grass seed. My fields are still over ankle deep in dark green grass.
If grass by nature doesn't feed well in late summer shouldn't naturally reared lambs simply have to cope with this? Speaking of breeding animals of course. Fattening lambs are a different thing all together.
I'm not looking to pick a fight, simply exploring the concept and hopefully gaining a wee bit more knowledge.

 

[MRT]

The same individuals will shine on the same farm whatever they’re fed.

I wish they did but this is not my experience so far, having picked fabulous looking, large ram lambs from heavy conc fed flocks and using them here, the progeny have failed to perform

 

[mezz]

Basics

Teeth on pad
balls (2) - not too soft, not too hard, not too small
Legs - can he walk, are there any obvious deformities
Back - a level top, no dips or humps
Shoulder and brisket - not too deep or broad, a wedge shape (improving as he goes back)
Condition - you want them fighting fit. Not too fat, not too thin. Consider where he’s come from and how he’s been managed.
Spark/character - he’s got to look like he means business and is up to the job.

extras
skin - tightness/peel to taste
Shape - to taste
EBVs - if your that way inclined

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the importance of a level top line? Thanks.

 

[neilo]

I couldn't imagine spending money to feed lambs when I never let my grass seed. My fields are still over ankle deep in dark green grass.
If grass by nature doesn't feed well in late summer shouldn't naturally reared lambs simply have to cope with this? Speaking of breeding animals of course. Fattening lambs are a different thing all together.
I'm not looking to pick a fight, simply exploring the concept and hopefully gaining a wee bit more knowledge.

Your grass that you never let go to seed will maintain it’s nutritional value right through. That’s the whole idea behind rotational grazing/cell grazing/daily moves etc.

Maintaining that grazing pressure using stock does restrict their individual intakes & growth rate a bit, but using a topper whilst maximising intakes will ensure your lambs grow at their best, on the cheapest feed available, albeit at a lower stocking rate than you might carry under rotational grazing.

letting them into a fodder crop is easier than managing grass well, and of course, provides food over winter when the grass isn’t growing.

 

[Ysgythan]

I wish they did but this is not my experience so far, having picked fabulous looking, large ram lambs from heavy conc fed flocks and using them here, the progeny have failed to perform

That’s not my point. What I’m saying is that within your production for a given year the best performers will be the best performers even if you tweaked or changed your feeding regime. Ad Lib cereals post weaning can transform an average lamb, but it would positively effect a good lamb even more.

 

[Ysgythan]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the importance of a level top line? Thanks.

two main things - longevity and butchery.

Poor backs can lead to mobility issues and in extreme cases difficulty serving. You want a tup to last a good top helps.

Any weakness behind the shoulder impacts on the shoulder joint and rib chops which are among the second tier of cuts after loin and quarter.

and personally speaking the aesthetics of it as well. Old dippy or humpy (or both) out in the field always draw your eye, and for the wrong reason.