Tilly Trailer test

TheTallGuy · May 7, 2021

Clive said:
i thought LOLER covered anything that lifts ?

@Nigel Wellings ?

There's a bit of a get out in that if only the telehandler operator is at risk then a LOLER ticket isn't mandatory in a legal sense, although many insurers insist on it
https://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/topics/maintenance-4.htm

betweenthelines · May 7, 2021

startinghandle said:
Who is responsible for making sure everything is good on big silage trailer?
The owner or part time driver?
And who will be in trouble in the event of serious accident?
Won't say why I am asking

Both

The driver for using it in an unfit condition.
The owner for allowing it to be used in an unfit condition
Driver is solely responsible for the load or it being overloaded.

Against_the_grain · May 7, 2021

If I was to hire a trailer for the season, then assuming that the daily checks where done would the owner be responsible for making sure that the brakes were up to standard etc...

Mc115reed · May 7, 2021

Clive said:
the business owner ultimately but operator has a duty to report any issues

But... throwing a curve ball out there...
who’s responsibility is it too decide if the driver is competent enough too carry out any pre-start checks on a trailer ect ect... there’s no real standard in the industry

... an 18 year old lad fresh out of nappy’s isn’t going too have the experience that a 30 year old operator is.... the driver could always argue they weren’t sure what the standard of a road legal/fit trailer is as they know no better...

Clive · May 7, 2021

Mc115reed said:
But... throwing a curve ball out there...
who’s responsibility is it too decide if the driver is competent enough too carry out any pre-start checks on a trailer ect ect... there’s no real standard in the industry ... an 18 year old lad fresh out of nappy’s isn’t going too have the experience that a 30 year old operator is.... the driver could always argue they weren’t sure what the standard of a road legal/fit trailer is as they know no better...

thats where a check sheet or app like merit gold helps imo - it asks specific questions that require ticking off the list like “all lights operational” “ wheel nuts checked” “tyre pressures checked” etc

pretty idiot proof for a daily check but not a replacement for qualified checks as well imo

Andrew · May 7, 2021

snarling bee said:
To be fully covered legally you probably need to do the following:

Annual full inspection and maintenance, including wheels and drums off to fully inspect the brakes. (which might be a Tilly)
AND annual rolling road brake test (or BAGMA decelerometer check which is a bit iffy IMO)
AND Daily Checklist
AND anything else in the manufacturer's maintenance schedule.
AND document everything.
AND don't use trailers with inadequate 'Agricultural' brakes on any tractor capable of over 20mph/30kph.

Is that the end of the argument?

Legally the only requirement is to make sure the trailer is safe and legal on the road. That is wide open to interpretation and depends a bit on mileage and payload and operating circumstances.

The only non grey area part is related to your last point.
If a trailer does not meet 25% braking efficiency it’s illegal on the road at any speed. To be used at high speed the trailer must meet 50% braking efficiency.

Also, be careful about removing brake drums. They are not routinely removed in hgv applications. It may only be necessary to remove them when the brakes are unlikely to get up to operating temperature.
For example a 3 axle trailer on commercial brakes with oil actuators will glaze the shoes as they never get hot.

However, a roller brake test will highlight glazed shoes without removing the drums. If you have one locally it is normally quicker, easier, and cheaper to do this at £10/axle.

betweenthelines · May 7, 2021

Against_the_grain said:
If I was to hire a trailer for the season, then assuming that the daily checks where done would the owner be responsible for making sure that the brakes were up to standard etc...

If the daily checks are done properly (which should include a "dynamic brake test" ie harsh brake in the yard to see if the trailer brakes engage) any brake faults will show up.

betweenthelines · May 7, 2021

Clive said:
thats where a check sheet or app like merit gold helps imo - it asks specific questions that require ticking off the list like “all lights operational” “ wheel nuts checked” “tyre pressures checked” etc

pretty idiot proof for a daily check but not a replacement for qualified checks as well imo

But you still need to know that the "idiot" is actually checking what they tick. I've known lots of HGV drivers do their daily checks before they leave the transport office!

Nigel Wellings · May 7, 2021

I have clients make comment to me that their TILLY test did not involve brakes & drums being taken off, and that it was only a visual test although a fairly thorough one. You can argue that any test done (like an MOT on a car) only proves that on the day it was carried out the machine is in good order. My view is that independently verified tests such as TILLY will carry weight with the law as long as they are backed up by your own weekly/daily maintenance schedules and some form of braking test carried out at intervals appropriate to the usage of the trailer.
One of the local training groups has run a 2 day maintenance course for trailers and trailer brakes which I felt was a good way of ensuring you have the knowledge to complete the work in house. May well have been presented by a 'trailer expert' that opinions have been expressed about on TFF before. My friend that did it ,found it very useful.
In my view regular on farm maintenance records are of most help in court but an independently verified report or test ( be it tilly, deceleration, or using HGV test centre) all help prove you are doing the job correctly.
There can be no argument about the need to document these various points to prove trailers/machines are in good working order. I have seen the consequences and effects on farming businesses and partners where it has gone wrong. Forget the courts and fines, the mental anguish and toll on everybody affected is not worth contemplating.

Clive · May 7, 2021

betweenthelines said:
But you still need to know that the "idiot" is actually checking what they tick. I've known lots of HGV drivers do their daily checks before they leave the transport office!

They sign it off - that would be at least something if I ever found myself in a court room I feel

TheTallGuy · May 7, 2021

Clive said:
They sign it off - that would be at least something if I ever found myself in a court room I feel

Not necessarily, because when up before the beak you will probably be asked "What measures did you employ to ensure that your daily checks were being carried out correctly?"

One way around that would be random spot checks - not something that you particularly want to have to do, especially if you have a good working relationship with your employees & generally trust them.

A haulier I know will often go around the yard after hours introducing minor faults (blown bulbs etc) to see if the drivers report them before leaving the yard - if they get to the gate without having reported or fixed the faults then it's a gross misconduct disciplinary.

Bloders · May 7, 2021

Brisel said:
LOLER is only required if you are lifting people up in an approved cage.

your wrong.
LOLER is required for ALL lifting operations.
If your lifting people the machine must be inspected every 6 months
If your lifting stuff (ie not people) then every 12 months

Tractor loaders dont need a LOLER inspection ONLY if they do not lift loads near people and the tractor has a safety cab. So if your loading a much spreader thats ok. If your loading fertiliser and near the machine (to open the bag) it needs a LOLER inspection - by law.

Bloders · May 7, 2021

On a HGV, is there a requirement to remove the brake drums during the maintenance schedule?

Bloders · May 7, 2021

snarling bee said:
Having observed a farming company being tried and found guilty in court of having an un-maintained trailer, the use of which resulted in the death of my daughter's boyfriend, I beg to differ.
In court you have to prove you have taken all reasonable steps...............
Just kicking the tyres and checking the lights won't get past a jury.

I was being picky. It is easy to misinterpret things, especially when you are so close to the topic, as unfortunately you are.
You said legally you had to do those activities - I was trying to make the point that there is no legislation to say you must do that.
I asked above, as i dont know, do you have to remove the drums on a HGV during a maintenace activity? I know a company who never brake test their trucks except at annual MOT even.

I agree however, if something happens, you need to have evidence to say you have done reasonable things to mitigate the issue. That then is the grey area IMO between what the law says you must do, and what you need to do as good practice. Sometimes they are the same things.
I appreciate this could be seen as being picky, but i think its important to differentiate between law, and what must be done etc.
A bit like the other thread. LOLER is law, but 50% (according to our insurer) dont do it.

I also think Tilly is a good thing if done corretly. As long as it is absoloutely clear what they do and do not do, it is fine.
If, however, as implied on this thread they have a check sheet listing checks whihc they are not doing, then it becomes less than worthless and devalues all such schemes, initiatives and good intentions. I read th story behind Tilly and cannot believe it was introduced for the wrong reasons. Maybe they need a vack to basics review?

Barleymow · May 7, 2021

Clive said:
i thought LOLER covered anything that lifts ?

@Nigel Wellings ?

Would a tipping trailer count as something that lifts

Bloders · May 7, 2021

Barleymow said:
Would a tipping trailer count as something that lifts

no
That should have a PUWER inspection instead.

bobk · May 7, 2021

I've never been asked for a loler , she was a showgirl ..........

puntabrava · May 7, 2021

snarling bee said:
To be fully covered legally you probably need to do the following:

Annual full inspection and maintenance, including wheels and drums off to fully inspect the brakes. (which might be a Tilly)
AND annual rolling road brake test (or BAGMA decelerometer check which is a bit iffy IMO)
AND Daily Checklist
AND anything else in the manufacturer's maintenance schedule.
AND document everything.
AND don't use trailers with inadequate 'Agricultural' brakes on any tractor capable of over 20mph/30kph.

Is that the end of the argument?

I don’t get those decelerometer machines, surely they only tell you it’s pulling more on the nearside than the offside or vice Versa but cannot differentiate between hubs on a tri axle trailer, only true test worth anything is a fully laden roller brake test as stipulated by the TC when somebody has been found to be non compliant.

Renaultman · May 7, 2021

snarling bee said:
To be fully covered legally you probably need to do the following:

Annual full inspection and maintenance, including wheels and drums off to fully inspect the brakes. (which might be a Tilly)
AND annual rolling road brake test (or BAGMA decelerometer check which is a bit iffy IMO)
AND Daily Checklist
AND anything else in the manufacturer's maintenance schedule.
AND document everything.
AND don't use trailers with inadequate 'Agricultural' brakes on any tractor capable of over 20mph/30kph.

Is that the end of the argument?

That should just about cover it, as long as you can show your operator has had full training and it is up to date.
Scary times if anything goes wrong

Renaultman · May 7, 2021

bobk said:
I've never been asked for a loler , she was a showgirl ..........

But that was 30 years ago.

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