Cattle tagging regulation change?

[JP1]

I have heard that cattle tags will be changing and will not be EID but GPS chip that can be read from a satelite so location of all bovine animals will be known, especially on the commons.

Best we insert one in you as well then @egbert

 

[Hfd Cattle]

As a store buyer , passports are useful, as a written (and signed ) record of the previous owner, the market I purchased it through and number of farm movements it's had.
Without them, and having to go through CTS, to trace animal history, it's going to be far harder to find the last owner. Can you imagine the number of extra CTS log ins there are going to be as finishers trace cattle just to check up on number of farm movements it's had previously .
Around half the markets I go to have some form of digital display showing tag number, age,sex, tb test date , weight, farm assurance status etc etc . Which you have to try and take in while cattle are going through the ring at 70 lots an hour. The passport is the paper record I get before I go home from the market to make sure what I've bought is what I thought was described in the ring. The information is in my hand not in a cloud somewhere.(for around 2% of the cattle I buy , I'm handed a market invoice and passport that doesn't match the eartags.)
The present passport system means that there are two parties in any market tag number mixup . Both have an animal and a printed passport, that don't match. Both animals are now worthless without it's own passport. It's in both parties interest ,to work together and exchange the correct passport. Checks and balances. Will this get harder without passports? Will people just be able to register any old on movements, without a paper passport (which is the ownership title document) to prove it ?

Good post and I agree with everything you wrote. In my view the current system works so why try and fix it ....... I can see my farm sale coming earlier than I thought and early retirement looming .....what on earth is the point of the NFU when they think it's perfectly acceptable to heap even more expense and hassle on an already over regulated industry. No doubt RT will think of some other 'rule or regulation ' like needing a certificate of competence to use a 'reader' and roll out an expensive one day course to qualify !

 

[egbert]

I have heard that cattle tags will be changing and will not be EID but GPS chip that can be read from a satelite so location of all bovine animals will be known, especially on the commons.

GPS? Not that I've heard, just EID with fabulous integrated computer hook ups etc etc .
(and it'll all work, in the real world, just like that......not).

(we're still ear notching sheep after how many years of EID?)

 

[egbert]

Best we insert one in you as well then @egbert

there's been unkind suggestions about a raddle......

 

[JP1]

there's been unkind suggestions about a raddle......

I suppose you've been proven but that was a while ago

 

[penntor]

GPS? Not that I've heard, just EID with fabulous integrated computer hook ups etc etc .
(and it'll all work, in the real world, just like that......not).

(we're still ear notching sheep after how many years of EID?)

It has been discussed in commoners meetings and yes, still notching sheep's ears, cannot be altered too easily, unlike paint marks and 'EID' tags.

 

[upnortheast]

Typical, something is working fine so they have to change it.
Told a while ago CTS was the most accurate of all gov databases
Over 90% accurate compared with the Swansea one in the 70% s

 

[egbert]

GPS? Not that I've heard, just EID with fabulous integrated computer hook ups etc etc .
(and it'll all work, in the real world, just like that......not).

(we're still ear notching sheep after how many years of EID?)

It has been discussed in commoners meetings and yes, still notching sheep's ears, cannot be altered too easily, unlike paint marks and 'EID' tags.

I've been present when some have talked of it, not fully understanding the difference.
(including, regrettably, some other DCC quartermen)
I haven't heard DEFRA bigwigs mention it.
(and I've had face to faces with some of the biggest wigs on this)

 

[Henarar]

I don't ever trust ARAMS but as I can do a paper AML1 and read the tags by sight, I just accept I pay for the EiD tag and do all the lambs even those for slaughter.

If they remove the ability to read tags without a scanner, it will be a nightmare and bl@@dy unfair for small stock keepers like myself. I've had RT, Trading Standards and other inspections and always been praised for how fastidious I am with these things

that's the thing with this sort of thing it costs those with only a handful of animals just the same as it costs those with thousands to set it all up, when those with a few have no use for it as they know their animals anyway

 

[M-J-G]

As a store buyer , passports are useful, as a written (and signed ) record of the previous owner, the market I purchased it through and number of farm movements it's had.
Without them, and having to go through CTS, to trace animal history, it's going to be far harder to find the last owner. Can you imagine the number of extra CTS log ins there are going to be as finishers trace cattle just to check up on number of farm movements it's had previously .
Around half the markets I go to have some form of digital display showing tag number, age,sex, tb test date , weight, farm assurance status etc etc . Which you have to try and take in while cattle are going through the ring at 70 lots an hour. The passport is the paper record I get before I go home from the market to make sure what I've bought is what I thought was described in the ring. The information is in my hand not in a cloud somewhere.(for around 2% of the cattle I buy , I'm handed a market invoice and passport that doesn't match the eartags.)
The present passport system means that there are two parties in any market tag number mixup . Both have an animal and a printed passport, that don't match. Both animals are now worthless without it's own passport. It's in both parties interest ,to work together and exchange the correct passport. Checks and balances. Will this get harder without passports? Will people just be able to register any old on movements, without a paper passport (which is the ownership title document) to prove it ?

Since you have the beast bought before you see the passport, how is that useful when selecting animals to buy?

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

I have heard that cattle tags will be changing and will not be EID but GPS chip that can be read from a satelite so location of all bovine animals will be known, especially on the commons.

Now this would be worthwhile. It is stuff all use to us knowing what we already know, Like Doris is cow 63 and she was wormed on..., but if we could see where she was from the comfort of the office, we could save all that fuel and time running around and checking. Ive just swung over to the digital side!! Im going to bang one of these ear tags in my dog, who cluttered off on some errand at midnight last night and caused a complete fluster to get back.

 

[Tarw Coch]

Now this would be worthwhile. It is stuff all use to us knowing what we already know, Like Doris is cow 63 and she was wormed on..., but if we could see where she was from the comfort of the office, we could save all that fuel and time running around and checking. Ive just swung over to the digital side!! Im going to bang one of these ear tags in my dog, who cluttered off on some errand at midnight last night and caused a complete fluster to get back.

Not really, you may be able to see where Dorris is from the comfort of your office but would you know if she was lame or frothing at the mouth and about to keel over?
There really is no substitute for checking your stock.

 

[mo!]

Since you have the beast bought before you see the passport, how is that useful when selecting animals to buy?

It's useful to find out that it is worth 50 quid less than you thought because it has already been on 4 farms...info which could have been on the marts website the night before.

What is really so great about having a mucky peice of paper?

CTS is always out of date, it is just too slow, if we had another F&M then you would realise that we don't actually know where a lot of cattle are.

As I understand it medicine records will not be part of the system. This is a missed opportunity in my mind, it would allow finishers to see what treatments the animal has had and the breeder to see health data for animals that have left the farm. Perhaps then I won't get as many Johnes cases? Or animals that look OK then go downhill fast when their pneumonia comes back. Or the surprise when your vet makes an exploratory incision and finds a row of stitches...

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

Not really, you may be able to see where Dorris is from the comfort of your office but would you know if she was lame or frothing at the mouth and about to keel over?
There really is no substitute for checking your stock.

Well.. maybe just for the dog, or then again no substitute for a lead

 

[JP1]

It's useful to find out that it is worth 50 quid less than you thought because it has already been on 4 farms...info which could have been on the marts website the night before.

What is really so great about having a mucky peice of paper?

CTS is always out of date, it is just too slow, if we had another F&M then you would realise that we don't actually know where a lot of cattle are.

As I understand it medicine records will not be part of the system. This is a missed opportunity in my mind, it would allow finishers to see what treatments the animal has had and the breeder to see health data for animals that have left the farm. Perhaps then I won't get as many Johnes cases? Or animals that look OK then go downhill fast when their pneumonia comes back. Or the surprise when your vet makes an exploratory incision and finds a row of stitches...

The mucky piece of paper carries signatures that could be actionable if found to be incorrect

The mucky (clean in my case) piece of paper inside it's own plastic wallet shows that many of my home bred cattle may have moved between my own holdings for grazings and / or at shows

I actually want to keep the 6-day standstill as much because the local APHA offices don't exist and if we had a major outbreak it might assist

Can you please outline why you so vehemently believe CTS is falling over because I can't see it myself

 

[mo!]

The mucky piece of paper carries signatures that could be actionable if found to be incorrect

The mucky (clean in my case) piece of paper inside it's own plastic wallet shows that many of my home bred cattle may have moved between my own holdings for grazings and / or at shows

I actually want to keep the 6-day standstill as much because the local APHA offices don't exist and if we had a major outbreak it might assist

Can you please outline why you so vehemently believe CTS is falling over because I can't see it myself

Vehement is a strong word, I'm only repeating what I've been told and what I've seen of the system. It has frequent outages, it is clunky to use, the traffic light system is extremely poor and contributes to stress as it seemingly changes at random.

6 day may suit a small farmer like yourself but it is a major hindrance for many. It currently serves no purpose other than to hand power to meat buyers. We are in an LFU so it wouldn't affect me as we can only sell to slaughter anyway but many farms are shackled by it.

Your clean (lucky you) piece of paper could just as easily be online, you wouldn't need continuation sheets, and when your animal is slaughtered the abattoir wouldn't need to handle vast quantities of paper. I realise in your spotless plastic wrapped farm a passport never gets damaged, or an envelope full of them gets trodden into a fold yard (that happened to our dealer with a cost of £2000) but it happens elsewhere. Everyone moaned when they brought passports in and now folks want to hold on to them???

 

[mo!]

The mucky piece of paper carries signatures that could be actionable if found to be incorrect

The mucky (clean in my case) piece of paper inside it's own plastic wallet shows that many of my home bred cattle may have moved between my own holdings for grazings and / or at shows

I actually want to keep the 6-day standstill as much because the local APHA offices don't exist and if we had a major outbreak it might assist

Can you please outline why you so vehemently believe CTS is falling over because I can't see it myself

Oh, we get plenty of passport which aren't signed. Or dated, or maybe stamped. Let's not mention the batch of 20 which all happened to be born on the first of the month either...

 

[JP1]

Vehement is a strong word, I'm only repeating what I've been told and what I've seen of the system. It has frequent outages, it is clunky to use, the traffic light system is extremely poor and contributes to stress as it seemingly changes at random.

6 day may suit a small farmer like yourself but it is a major hindrance for many. It currently serves no purpose other than to hand power to meat buyers. We are in an LFU so it wouldn't affect me as we can only sell to slaughter anyway but many farms are shackled by it.

Your clean (lucky you) piece of paper could just as easily be online, you wouldn't need continuation sheets, and when your animal is slaughtered the abattoir wouldn't need to handle vast quantities of paper. I realise in your spotless plastic wrapped farm a passport never gets damaged, or an envelope full of them gets trodden into a fold yard (that happened to our dealer with a cost of £2000) but it happens elsewhere. Everyone moaned when they brought passports in and now folks want to hold on to them???

OK , poor choice of words not vehement but consistent claim

I had a red traffic light only today. My off movement was OK but the purchaser had not done an on movement. His issue if he gets an inspection but the system works and I used the internal secure message system to inform them of the on holding details

What is wrong with a 6-day standstill? Surely some form of quarantine is appropriate?

40 cows may be small but I have the same number of procedures to follow as anyone else and frankly don't see your issue. Are you really saying EiD will remove the stand still?

 

[mo!]

OK , poor choice of words not vehement but consistent claim

I had a red traffic light only today. My off movement was OK but the purchaser had not done an on movement. His issue if he gets an inspection but the system works and I used the internals secure message system to inform them of the on holding details

What is wrong with a 6-day standstill? Surely some form of quarantine is appropriate?

40 cows may be small but I have the same number of procedures to follow as anyone else and frankly don't see your issue. Are you really saying EiD will remove the stand still?

Removal of the standstill was talked about as the carrot.

Why do we need a quarantine period? In the case of F&M an immediate standstill with an accurate up to date record of movement would be more use and less restrictive to free trade.

I can see that on a breeding farm that 6 day isn't an issue, but on larger trading farms you must see it as punitive.

 

[egbert]

Removal of the standstill was talked about as the carrot.

Why do we need a quarantine period? In the case of F&M an immediate standstill with an accurate up to date record of movement would be more use and less restrictive to free trade.

I can see that on a breeding farm that 6 day isn't an issue, but on larger trading farms you must see it as punitive.

Talk of FMD when you're against the 6 day standstill is pretty ripe.
If it had been in place before Feb 2001, a lot of pain might've been spared.

It's a nuisance, but serves a very good purpose.

And if you don't see the irony in the phrase 'larger trading farms' perhaps you need to take a step back and ask why gov needed to put such things in place.
Perhaps you need to look in the mirror, I don't know.
And while you're free to dismiss JPs opinions because he's a 'small farmer' whose opinions evidently don't count, do mine count?
(I see I've now set something like 4500 tag numbers in home bred calves ears on my hobby farm).

We've been here before I believe Mo.
You think electro-tags will be wonderful, I think they'll be a pain in the butt.
The sheep EIDs do nothing for me, merely adding expense and giving gov inspectors another stick to beat me with.
You seem to think they'll work in the real world, and that dropping an envelope of passports in the mud is a problem.
I'm quite confident that the new system won't work any better, and the gadgets that get dropped in the shite/slammed against the headstock etc will be harder fixed than some dirty bits of paper.


I deal with - generally through missus Egbert- any number of gov departments. And BCMS are a shining light of efficiency and common sense against any of them.
We must see and measure the world very differently, you and I.