Drench or not?

[Cab-over Pete]

Aye-up,

back in the winter I decided we would move all our sheep off the main block (all 14 acres!!) on to new ground near home. That ground hasn’t seen sheep for over a year and even then it was just a short winter graze.

They all had Dectomax when they came here and have had a fluke drench in March. The lambs have been worm drenched and treated for coccidiosis.
I was thinking we ought to worm the ewes but they all look very well, as do the lambs, so I’m thinking maybe not to worry. After all, we’re all being told to use less of this stuff.

Would you be doing the job? Or maybe pick up some dung samples to drop into the vets?

Cheers, Pete.

 

[Agrivator]

Worm them all with Levamisole (eg Levacide). You will then have no need to bother until at least after weaning.

An added benefit is that you have the same ground next year (with nobody else's sheep on it) it will still be relatively safe Clean Grazing.

 

[Gulli]

You could dung sample but really there's no need to drench fit adult ewes with anything

 

[Nithsdale]

You've done the lambs, that is all you need to worry about.

Don't worm ewes, ever.

 

[neilo]

Worm them all with Levamisole (eg Levacide). You will then have no need to bother until at least after weaning.

An added benefit is that you have the same ground next year (with nobody else's sheep on it) it will still be relatively safe Clean Grazing.

What a ridiculous suggestion. Resistance to levamisole is almost as widespread as it is to white drench, but will vary from farm to farm. Without knowing the resistance status of that particular land, nobody can possibly say a yellow drench (or any other group) will clear them out.
As for being 'relatively safe clean grazing', no drench will kill the worm eggs or larvae on the field, which is the huge majority of them at any one time.

Fit, adult sheep shouldn't need worming at any time, expect perhaps at lambing time to reduce pasture contamination & the 'Spring rise', but even that is arguable.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

I don’t think we drench too often, but I didn’t know they should never need doing at all.

 

[neilo]

I don’t think we drench too often, but I didn’t know they should never need doing at all.

Sheep develop a natural immunity to worms over time, apart from heamonchus/barber pole worms, which only drops if they are unwell, or at times of stress like lambing.

They just don’t need worming at any other time.

 

[twizzel]

Interestingly I only wormed 1 ewe Hogg at lambing- the rest I only drenched for fluke as it seems advice is changing regarding worming at lambing I.e only worm hoggs, thin ewes etc. Anyhow first FEC on the lambs at about 6-9 weeks old showed 50epg strongyle eggs which would back up the new advice?

 

[Farmer Fin]

I don’t think we drench too often, but I didn’t know they should never need doing at all.

They still need fluke though.

 

[Wooly]

Aye-up,

back in the winter I decided we would move all our sheep off the main block (all 14 acres!!) on to new ground near home. That ground hasn’t seen sheep for over a year and even then it was just a short winter graze.

They all had Dectomax when they came here and have had a fluke drench in March. The lambs have been worm drenched and treated for coccidiosis.
I was thinking we ought to worm the ewes but they all look very well, as do the lambs, so I’m thinking maybe not to worry. After all, we’re all being told to use less of this stuff.

Would you be doing the job? Or maybe pick up some dung samples to drop into the vets?

Cheers, Pete.

I very much dought you need to worm the ewes...........or probably the lambs for that matter. I certainly wouldn't.

As for dung samples, Mole Valley Farmers do a kit you can buy for £7. You take the poo samples and send them to their lab. They ring through the results. Slower than taking a sample to the vets, but cheaper.

 

[JD-Kid]

intresting about ewes
we did not use drench caps this year on ewe pre lamb payed a huge price for it had to drench them pre weaning and done the bottom end again pre mating
not. huge levels but if ewes. using there immune system to fight off worms a big drain in them
poorer or lighter ewe im not shy to drench them

 

[Agrivator]

What a ridiculous suggestion. Resistance to levamisole is almost as widespread as it is to white drench, but will vary from farm to farm. Without knowing the resistance status of that particular land, nobody can possibly say a yellow drench (or any other group) will clear them out.
As for being 'relatively safe clean grazing', no drench will kill the worm eggs or larvae on the field, which is the huge majority of them at any one time.

Fit, adult sheep shouldn't need worming at any time, expect perhaps at lambing time to reduce pasture contamination & the 'Spring rise', but even that is arguable.

Have a look at Pete's OP. What huge majority of of worm eggs or larvae would you expect to see on a field which '' hasn’t seen sheep for over a year and even then it was just a short winter graze''.

Such a field will have little or no carryover of worm larvae and can be regarded as Clean Grazing. A precautionary worm drench for ewes and any lambs over three weeks if age before they go onto that grazing will keep it more-or-less clean for the rest of the grazing season, and crucially it will break the Nematodirus cycle.

The same field can, if necessary be used for lambs next year, but again, a periparturient dose for the ews will reduce the build-up of gastro and intestinal worms. Failure to do that will result in lambs needing more and more dosing, increasing the risk of building up worm resistance to more and more drugs.

And for Pete's benefit, I attach a link to a useful summary of a Sheep Worming Planner''.

https://www.georgevetgroup.co.uk/georgevets/images/grid/farm/4 Sheep/Sheep_Worming_Planner_GVG.pdf

 

[Agrivator]

You've done the lambs, that is all you need to worry about.

Don't worm ewes, ever.

One of the main reasons for dosing ewes at lambing time, is to reduce the periparturient rise in worm egg output from the ewes.
It has a number of benefits:

1. It reduces scour in ewes,and eliminates one of the factors tending to reduce milk yield and reduces the risk of fly strike.

2. It reduces the number of larvae which are a subsequent source of infection for lambs.

3. On a Clean Grazing System, it eliminates the need for routing dosing of lambs, and as with ewes, it much reduces the risk of scouring and fly strike.

In case you haven't studied parasitology or are not aware of the principles behind the operation of grazing systems in order to control internal parasites in both sheep and cattle, I can send you the original published papers

The other major oversight is a failure to ensure that tups are included in a clearly thought-out dosing regime - even Lleyn tups if you can catch them, or Suffolks if you can manage to hold their heads up.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I don’t think we drench too often, but I didn’t know they should never need doing at all.

Quite a few of the farmers over here will be running flocks that have only ever had one worm drench (maximum, based on a need to) in their lives, it's not only a great way to save your time and money but also drastically reduces resistance problems; so when/if you need to, it's far more effective and often cheaper, as the cheaper actives (if you do a FEC and get the vets to see what will work) are often more effective than the expensive combi's.

I think the point with worming some people forget, is: when you drench the mob, you're selecting for the 0.1% of resistant parasites every time you do.

Thus it's a compounding problem if you routinely do it, which works both ways. It makes doing it again less effective and more necessary.
Not all sheep are equal, in the respect that some are bred for tolerance and resistance and dag-score etc, and others simply aren't.
There is no recipe, Pete.

 

[neilo]

Have a look at Pete's OP. What huge majority of of worm eggs or larvae would you expect to see on a field which '' hasn’t seen sheep for over a year and even then it was just a short winter graze''.

Such a field will have little or no carryover of worm larvae and can be regarded as Clean Grazing. A precautionary worm drench for ewes and any lambs over three weeks if age before they go onto that grazing will keep it more-or-less clean for the rest of the grazing season, and crucially it will break the Nematodirus cycle.

The same field can, if necessary be used for lambs next year, but again, a periparturient dose for the ews will reduce the build-up of gastro and intestinal worms. Failure to do that will result in lambs needing more and more dosing, increasing the risk of building up worm resistance to more and more drugs.

And for Pete's benefit, I attach a link to a useful summary of a Sheep Worming Planner''.

https://www.georgevetgroup.co.uk/georgevets/images/grid/farm/4 Sheep/Sheep_Worming_Planner_GVG.pdf

Even if there were no worm eggs on a pasture, dosing before moving sheep to that pasture would just be seeding it with 100% resistant worms, particularly if you used one that has a high level of resistance on most farms such as a yellow drench. A fast road to speeding up a problem.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Blimey. There’s a lot more to it than I thought

 

[Guleesh]

Have a look at Pete's OP. What huge majority of of worm eggs or larvae would you expect to see on a field which '' hasn’t seen sheep for over a year and even then it was just a short winter graze''.

Such a field will have little or no carryover of worm larvae and can be regarded as Clean Grazing. A precautionary worm drench for ewes and any lambs over three weeks if age before they go onto that grazing will keep it more-or-less clean for the rest of the grazing season, and crucially it will break the Nematodirus cycle.

The same field can, if necessary be used for lambs next year, but again, a periparturient dose for the ews will reduce the build-up of gastro and intestinal worms. Failure to do that will result in lambs needing more and more dosing, increasing the risk of building up worm resistance to more and more drugs.

And for Pete's benefit, I attach a link to a useful summary of a Sheep Worming Planner''.

https://www.georgevetgroup.co.uk/georgevets/images/grid/farm/4 Sheep/Sheep_Worming_Planner_GVG.pdf

As Neilo has already pointed out turning drenched ewes out onto clean pasture means 100% of worm eggs hatching on that pasture to be resistant to levamisole or whatever you're using, meaning that 100% of larvae ingested by lambs will be from resistant worms. so yes you can use a different chemical group next time, and will have to the following year, until you've bred worms resistant to every chemical group. If the ewes aren't dosed and are putting out worm eggs that are susceptible to wormers then you'll still have wormers that are effective to manage worms in growing lambs- which is the whole point?

You're breeding a sheep flock, but you are also obliged to breeding a worm population at the same time, best not to cull the worms hard and cull the susceptible sheep instead.

 

[Nithsdale]

New research shows sheep farmers can save money at lambing time and safeguard the future of their flocks | SCOPS News

New research shows sheep farmers can save money at lambing time and safeguard the future of their flocks, news from SCOPS, the sustainable control of parasites in sheep.

www.scops.org.uk

 

[CollCrofter]

Only time anything is wormed here are the lambs in June with Oramec or Animec, if they look like they need another dose at weaning then they'll get it but that's not very often at all.

Definitely concentrate on fluke as they're a sheeps worst enemy, but be careful with what you're using and when depending on the life cycle of the fluke

https://www.norbrook.com/media/1360/sheep-fluke-and-worm-bpg.pdf This might be of help but depending on your ground and system I would consult your vet. No point in ramming product down anythings throat that doesn't need it and could lead to major problems in the future. Not to mention the money you would be wasting

 

[Agrivator]

Even if there were no worm eggs on a pasture, dosing before moving sheep to that pasture would just be seeding it with 100% resistant worms, particularly if you used one that has a high level of resistance on most farms such as a yellow drench. A fast road to speeding up a problem.

In that case, use a more expensive wormer (Zolvix) to eliminate any resistant stomach and intestinal worms before moving to Clean Grazing, with its much reduced reliance on drenches.

It's not too difficult to understand. But as you seem to be an expert on the subject, can you explain you own Grazing Policy as a means of reducing the need for anthelmintics in sheep.

It will have to be as effective as the classic Clean Grazing System - described by the Director of the Hill Farming Research Institute as '' Immaculate in its Conception, Outstanding in its Simplicity''