Farming in Wales!

[Ffermer Bach]

The regularity of reports of serious slurry pollution in Welsh rivers is a national disgrace. I'm surprised its taken this long tbh.

The business model of dairy intensification In Wales had ignored the climate and topography for decades.

Just my thoughts as a retired (English) river inspector.

But aren't these pollution incidents already breaking the law? If they are, creating more rules and regulations for everyone else is not the answer, policing the present regulations is what should be done.

I think supermarkets have a role to play in this, as the low prices have encouraged the small farmers to stop producing milk, and the big to get bigger because of the often low margins. If the public want a healthy countryside, they have a big role to play in what they choose to buy.

I can count around me the number of farmers who have given up producing milk.

 

[neilo]

The regularity of reports of serious slurry pollution in Welsh rivers is a national disgrace. I'm surprised its taken this long tbh.

The business model of dairy intensification In Wales had ignored the climate and topography for decades.

Just my thoughts as a retired (English) river inspector.

Dairy intensification isn’t the problem, as much as the lack of slurry/effluent handling & storage being considered. Having farms with only two weeks of storage is always going to end in problems, even without extended high rainfall periods.

Imposing NVZ regs on the whole of Wales is very much using a sledgehammer to crack a nut though. Anyone farming extensive sheep on the slopes of Snowdon is going to have to assess & map every part of their hill for pollution risk, and colour their map in so they know not to try to take a slurry tanker up there.

 

[Yale]

Dairy intensification isn’t the problem, as much as the lack of slurry/effluent handling & storage being considered. Having farms with only two weeks of storage is always going to end in problems, even without extended high rainfall periods.

Imposing NVZ regs on the whole of Wales is very much using a sledgehammer to crack a nut though. Anyone farming extensive sheep on the slopes of Snowdon is going to have to assess & map every part of their hill for pollution risk, and colour their map in so they know not to try to take a slurry tanker up there.

Yes,that is exactly the point I was making.

Tying up scarce NRW resources just to tick a box which is irrelevant.

Also the legislation is there to have dealt with pollution and potential problems As has been pointed out.

Maybe some areas needed to be assessed for NVZ inclusion however this whole country inclusion is not going to work.

Farmers will ignore it as the chance of getting inspected will be slim.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Dairy intensification isn’t the problem, as much as the lack of slurry/effluent handling & storage being considered. Having farms with only two weeks of storage is always going to end in problems, even without extended high rainfall periods.

Imposing NVZ regs on the whole of Wales is very much using a sledgehammer to crack a nut though. Anyone farming extensive sheep on the slopes of Snowdon is going to have to assess & map every part of their hill for pollution risk, and colour their map in so they know not to try to take a slurry tanker up there.

We were included in the English NVZ from the start. That was despite the evidence not supporting it. The peaks in nitrate levels in the Upper Lee, our local river, are all down to raw sewage discharges from public sewerage works.

I don't criticise dairy intensification per se, just the failure to plan for the slurry and muck properly. It's not acceptable to be pumping slurry out in winter onto saturated or frozen land.

I agree totally with you about the impacts of applying NVZ rules to upland sheep. The rules should be very "light touch" in that situation. You should simply be able to demonstrate that your stock are outdoors most of the time and that it's not feasible to mechanically spread muck or slurry on large areas of the farm then have these areas exempted.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

But aren't these pollution incidents already breaking the law? If they are, creating more rules and regulations for everyone else is not the answer, policing the present regulations is what should be done.

Yes. It's a failure of enforcement. The nitrate loading does need managing too though hence the need for NVZ inclusion in targeted areas.

I can count around me the number of farmers who have given up producing milk.

Every neighbour here had a dairy unit in the 1950's. Now none have. Hertfordshire has under 10 dairy units now.

 

[Arceye]

The holier than thou brigade are out in force and are not going to let little things like facts, economics or common sense get in the way.
I'm afraid when Defra get up to speed here in good old Blighty we will be forced to stockpile dung for up to twelve months under cover. No new livestock facilities will be given planning permission unless it includes 12 months undercover dung storage. Field heaps will be banned. Any spreading of any kind will be banned in closed periods. It's coming whether we like it or not.
You see it's really big brother, they tried to ban roundup ready GM crops and failed, so they went for roundup itself and proved their power in getting it seriously under threat, banned in places. They won. Now the target is livestock farming, they cannot prove it is any more harmful than anything else like flying or driving or purchasing endless electrical goods so they will destroy it by other means, make it uneconomic, make it an environmental pariah, say whatever it takes to destroy it. These people and organizations are highly motivated and driven and have the ears of those in power, even getting to the top man himself except he's too stupid to realize it.

 

[Yale]

The holier than thou brigade are out in force and are not going to let little things like facts, economics or common sense get in the way.
I'm afraid when Defra get up to speed here in good old Blighty we will be forced to stockpile dung for up to twelve months under cover. No new livestock facilities will be given planning permission unless it includes 12 months undercover dung storage. Field heaps will be banned. Any spreading of any kind will be banned in closed periods. It's coming whether we like it or not.
You see it's really big brother, they tried to ban roundup ready GM crops and failed, so they went for roundup itself and proved their power in getting it seriously under threat, banned in places. They won. Now the target is livestock farming, they cannot prove it is any more harmful than anything else like flying or driving or purchasing endless electrical goods so they will destroy it by other means, make it uneconomic, make it an environmental pariah, say whatever it takes to destroy it. These people and organizations are highly motivated and driven and have the ears of those in power, even getting to the top man himself except he's too stupid to realize it.

But farmers will just follow the easy path,bank the environmental payments and produce a lot less food.

That is what I am planning to do and have expanded our acreage to do it.

Retro farming,the way forward.

 

[daijd]

I don’t see a problem with the 5 month storage and 3 month closed period. It should avoid the situation where once closed period ends, every farmer would be out spreading slurry regardless of weather conditions.
To me I’d rather harvest and hold the slurry to spread at the times of year to promote growth and save on manufactured fertilisers.
Most darying enterprises are guilty of expanding their business without the required storage.

 

[farmerm]

Dairy intensification isn’t the problem, as much as the lack of slurry/effluent handling & storage being considered. Having farms with only two weeks of storage is always going to end in problems, even without extended high rainfall periods.

Imposing NVZ regs on the whole of Wales is very much using a sledgehammer to crack a nut though. Anyone farming extensive sheep on the slopes of Snowdon is going to have to assess & map every part of their hill for pollution risk, and colour their map in so they know not to try to take a slurry tanker up there.

simpler solution... print the maps on red paper and then use a few swipes with tipex to colour the few areas that are fit to take a slurry tanker

 

[farmerm]

But farmers will just follow the easy path,bank the environmental payments and produce a lot less food.

That is what I am planning to do and have expanded our acreage to do it.

Retro farming,the way forward.

the budget per ac for environmental payments will be in real terms far less than BPS.

If what you say is true about farmers following the easy path, why do so many farmers in marginal areas, farms with BPS amounts close to or in some cases more than their farm profits, still choose to work hard to produce food for, in effect, nothing? The easy path is rarely the path farmers seem to follow!

 

[Yale]

the budget per ac for environmental payments will be in real terms far less than BPS.

If what you say is true about farmers following the easy path, why do so many farmers in marginal areas, farms with BPS amounts close to or in some cases more than their farm profits, still choose to work hard to produce food for, in effect, nothing? The easy path is rarely the path farmers seem to follow!

Costs can be reduced far quicker than loss of output especially if what you produce is already unprofitable.

If you are not making a profit from what leaves the farm without BPS then what is the point in producing it?

 

[Huwie]

Ah OK. So the major problem with it boils down to the slurry storage?

I can see the problem with closed period because as soon as these end everyone is out with the tankers.

But they are only bringing this out because slurry/muck is getting into rivers in the first place.

A minority of farmers in Wales are polluting rivers! 200 plus milking cows in the south is a lot compared to an average 50-80 suckling cows per farm up north. Nrw have already said it will make the problem worse by introducing the nvz. Why should we all have to suffer for some other irresponsible farmers

 

[Huwie]

The regularity of reports of serious slurry pollution in Welsh rivers is a national disgrace. I'm surprised its taken this long tbh.

The business model of dairy intensification In Wales had ignored the climate and topography for decades.

Just my thoughts as a retired (English) river inspector.

Ok maybe so but In localised hotspots! Not the whole country!!!!!! North wales has some of the cleanest rivers going and that’s come from an inspector himself! There’s me thinking this was a farmer to farmer debate

 

[Cowabunga]

Ah OK. So the major problem with it boils down to the slurry storage?

I can see the problem with closed period because as soon as these end everyone is out with the tankers.

But they are only bringing this out because slurry/muck is getting into rivers in the first place.

Yet rivers are almost universally cleaner nowadays than they have been for about a century. The main polluters are actually housing estates, roads, paved areas and the occasional huge outflow from sewerage plants that claim 'act of nature' when their systems are sluiced or break down.

 

[Breakthru]

Wait till they start getting pee'd about the real problem. Eutrophication. Free range hens already causing problems in some rivers in Wales.
One major cause is washing powders. Linlithgow loch phosphate problems started long before farmers in the area used slag etc

 

[Cowabunga]

The regularity of reports of serious slurry pollution in Welsh rivers is a national disgrace. I'm surprised its taken this long tbh.

The business model of dairy intensification In Wales had ignored the climate and topography for decades.

Just my thoughts as a retired (English) river inspector.

There is the very occasional incident that nowadays invariably hits the headlines. A high proportion of recent incidents have been from industrial plant, certainly in this locality. Mainly digesters used to produce electricity which happen to be sited on what used to be farms. There is the occasional dodgy farmer, of course there is, as there are totally unforeseeable accidents, just as with any industrial process in all industries.

Basically the UK is killing off industry because industry is intrinsically messy and nobody wants it in their UK back yard. Livestock production in particular is destined to be in terminal decline over the next two decades, especially as we head inexorably towards the ridiculous goes of 'net zero carbon emissions'. Mark my words, there is an agenda towards drastically reducing livestock and replacing the land used with trees and scrubland. The forcing of massive expense on the industry in the form of NVZ and long storage of effluent with lids to capture gas emissions will be nowhere near compensated by grants and certainly not by increasing income. It is a way of forcing people out of the industry. If farmers are daft enough to get into further debt to satisfy the increasing regulations they will go to the wall. If they can afford it, wise farmers will probably sell their stock and either downsize considerably while cutting costs to the bone, and/or take all the environmental grants to do so and take an off-farm job or enterprise.

 

[Yale]

Don’t forget carp fisheries.

Guy near us throws tonnes of chicken pellets in to make the fish grow.

It‘s all nutrients added to the water system.

 

[aled1590]

Area not far from me in N Wales have had a few serious incidents with slurry polluting a river, from dairy farms. Also heard not sure if it’s true that few farms were pumping directly into river at night, bloody hope it’s not true! Think I’ll stick to FYM regardless of cost of straw

 

[Tarw Coch]

Area not far from me in N Wales have had a few serious incidents with slurry polluting a river, from dairy farms. Also heard not sure if it’s true that few farms were pumping directly into river at night, bloody hope it’s not true! Think I’ll stick to FYM regardless of cost of straw

I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid as to pump slurry directly into a river, WHY !
That’s beyond reckless, if true I hope they’re caught and put out of buisness, a fine isn’t enough for such a deliberate act but I’d be very surprised if it were true.

 

[Yale]

I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid as to pump slurry directly into a river, WHY !
That’s beyond reckless, if true I hope they’re caught and put out of buisness, a fine isn’t enough for such a deliberate act but I’d be very surprised if it were true.

.........because they can.