Machinery prices and the law.

[Lazy-Farmer]

I’m not sure if I’m alone in this but I hate shopping for machinery. I enjoy the looking and everything about it except trying to get prices. It’s always a game of who you are and how you get on with the dealer etc. If you ever find a list price it’s nothing like what anyone pays and prices are never shown on anything. Adverts online and in magazines saying POA.

This brings me to the law. Let me start with The fact that I’m no lawyer! My understanding after reading some things on the governments trading standard site and my experience the retail sector Is that it is a legal requirement for products being sold to have a marked price they must be priced in metric if by weight. It must be clearly shown or a price list available. It must be in GBP and show if vat is added or not.

This covers expensive items like property down to a single potato. A discount may be applied but you must actually sell the items at normal prices otherwise your claiming to have a percentage off is a lie. It’s just the price. Lots of business selling furniture etc have been done for this.

My question is why is the agricultural machinery industry seem to be working outside this. Surely a tractor costs X amount to make and get to the point of sale. The dealer has a markup of Y and that’s the price. That’s it. Works for cars. Works for a pickup. Why is it that As a farmer the price is never the price.

To reiterate I am no lawyer nor anything close to an expert in this. I’d love for someone to explain to me why you can’t spec and price a tractor the same way you can a land rover for example.

 

[Nearly]

Machinery sales are business to business rather than consumer sales covered by the retail legislation?

 

[Andrew]

Houses can be on the market for a certain price, the buyer can make a lower offer, if it’s accepted that’s the same as buying kit. The dealer is effectively making the lower offer for us. You can haggle on cars etc as well.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Machinery sales are business to business rather than consumer sales covered by the retail legislation?

Not all of them are. Anyone can go buy a piece of machinery. Same as anyone can go buy a van. Also if you go in to a cash and carry that you need a vat no to get into they still must comply.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Houses can be on the market for a certain price, the buyer can make a lower offer, if it’s accepted that’s the same as buying kit. The dealer is effectively making the lower offer for us. You can haggle on cars etc as well.

I didn’t say discounts can’t be applied. You can haggle in Tesco if you like. Not sure your gonna get anywhere, but you can.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Out of curiosity do you both like the lack of prices on equipment and what would be the disadvantage if it was simply shown.

 

[Dave W]

Your worrying about a problem that isn't there.
yes POA and the whole charade Of list price is a pain. But if people were really that bothered then the POA dealers wouldn't sell anything. Yet they're just as successful as the dealers who post prices.
Does anyone actually care that much to make a difference other than a tff moan?

 

[Goweresque]

Don't all new machines have a list price? List prices are always quoted in those FW machinery comparisons. So as long as there's an official published list price then any legal requirements are met. Any discounts to list price are at the discretion of the dealer/manufacturer, which is where the haggling comes in. Now if you walked into a dealership and said 'I want this model of tractor, and its list price is £Xk, here's the money' and they refused to sell you one at the official list price, then one assumes they would be breaking the law. But not publicising the discount to list price that they are prepared to give is not a crime.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Your worrying about a problem that isn't there.

yes POA and the whole charade Of list price is a pain. But if people were really that bothered then the POA dealers wouldn't sell anything. Yet they're just as successful as the dealers who post prices.
Does anyone actually care that much to make a difference other than a tff moan?

I’m not worried about it at all. I’m annoyed at something I dislike.

It is a problem as it wastes a lot of time for the farmer. It also forces you to spend time chatting to sales people. I don’t know about you but when I have free time I want to see my family and friends or do something I enjoy not wasting hours if not days speaking to sale staff just to get a price. It’s infuriating. If I want to by a new mower for example I’d like to be able to shop online work out what’s out there, what’s in what price range, read a few reviews and watch a few videos of it working. Once I have decided what’s worth seeing in person I’ll go see it an have the chats.

with the current system you can look but have only your own guesses of prices and you can make the trip to the dealer (often miles) have the chat and then realise it’s £5k more than you thought and out of your price range. Then you have to start again and go to another dealer. Waste another day. Granted you can do a lot of this over tho phone but I can’t be arsed with masses of phone cables wasting my time and the sales person to get a simple price. Don’t even get me started one the ones on social media who say PM me for a price.

I personally won’t buy from people with PAO unless I’m in urgent need and can’t get it elsewhere

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Don't all new machines have a list price? List prices are always quoted in those FW machinery comparisons. So as long as there's an official published list price then any legal requirements are met. Any discounts to list price are at the discretion of the dealer/manufacturer, which is where the haggling comes in. Now if you walked into a dealership and said 'I want this model of tractor, and its list price is £Xk, here's the money' and they refused to sell you one at the official list price, then one assumes they would be breaking the law. But not publicising the discount to list price that they are prepared to give is not a crime.

Have you ever met anyone who paid list price or even close. I have gone up to stands at shows and never had any deadlines with anyone on the stand and they say that’s the list price but the discount is X%. That’s to everyone. I didn’t ask for a discount it’s automatic. It’s a method of hiding the prices from the buyer and other dealers. All the dealers know what their competitors are doing and will know each other’s prices. All the farmers etc know the price is not the price. Nobody else cares. So surely since everyone knows it’s all a farce why not just give up on this redundant method and make the price the price. If one farm buys a £m plus a year fair point to give discounts, maybe you were at agri collage with the dealer discount whatever the case may be but getting 20-30% off as standard to anyone is not a discount. It’s false price inflation. It’s my understanding failed price inflation is a crime.

 

[Mur Huwcun]

It’s the same with most things, never have I seen prices of Fertilizer, animal feeds or chemicals publicly advertised as it usually depends on qty bough. phone up the builder merchant for some prices and two different people can have completely different prices depending on how much they spend there every month. Local car garage can sell parts from CES cheaper than most can buy them there, spending over £35k per month puts them on the top discount tier!!! Obviously they’re going to look after their best, returning customers same as everyone. Would you charge your neighbour for the lend of a tractor for an afternoon? But you woukd hire it out to someone 10 miles away type scenario. If you want a price, phone up for a chat!!

 

[TomD]

Have you ever met anyone who paid list price or even close. I have gone up to stands at shows and never had any deadlines with anyone on the stand and they say that’s the list price but the discount is X%. That’s to everyone. I didn’t ask for a discount it’s automatic. It’s a method of hiding the prices from the buyer and other dealers. All the dealers know what their competitors are doing and will know each other’s prices. All the farmers etc know the price is not the price. Nobody else cares. So surely since everyone knows it’s all a farce why not just give up on this redundant method and make the price the price. If one farm buys a £m plus a year fair point to give discounts, maybe you were at agri collage with the dealer discount whatever the case may be but getting 20-30% off as standard to anyone is not a discount. It’s false price inflation. It’s my understanding failed price inflation is a crime.

Just pay the RRP on everything then so that you wont get angered by it as that's the price published .

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Just pay the RRP on everything then so that you wont get angered by it as that's the price published .

till I speak to the guy next door and find out what he paid.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

It’s the same with most things, never have I seen prices of Fertilizer, animal feeds or chemicals publicly advertised as it usually depends on qty bough. phone up the builder merchant for some prices and two different people can have completely different prices depending on how much they spend there every month. Local car garage can sell parts from CES cheaper than most can buy them there, spending over £35k per month puts them on the top discount tier!!! Obviously they’re going to look after their best, returning customers same as everyone. Would you charge your neighbour for the lend of a tractor for an afternoon? But you woukd hire it out to someone 10 miles away type scenario. If you want a price, phone up for a chat!!

You obviously enjoy those chats and have time to waste. I have no issue with a tier price system. I have an issue with the RRP being nonsense. Why take 30% off for everyone and give Davy the contractor who spends a fortune 35% off. Just make the RRP the price the dealer expects to actually get for it and give Davy 5% off. Everyone then easily knows what the price is and has no need to constantly be asking for prices

 

[Exfarmer]

A list price if you look closely is a guide, it is illegal for any manufacturer to enforce a set price, they can only do this if they sell direct.
Also when you look at ”sale” prices, have you never heard of DFS ?
I am in the market for a Large new greenhouse, retailer told me they had a 50% sale on £16,000 reduced to £8,000 if I bought by May 31st thanks to Covid. Strange today list price for same is £9,000. Can see no difference to another identical greenhouse from another maker, listed at £5,300.
sale of goods act is a bit of a joke!

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

A list price if you look closely is a guide, it is illegal for any manufacturer to enforce a set price, they can only do this if they sell direct.
Also when you look at ”sale” prices, have you never heard of DFS ?
I am in the market for a Large new greenhouse, retailer told me they had a 50% sale on £16,000 reduced to £8,000 if I bought by May 31st thanks to Covid. Strange today list price for same is £9,000. Can see no difference to another identical greenhouse from another maker, listed at £5,300.
sale of goods act is a bit of a joke!

Your exactly right. I should have mentioned I was directing this at the dealer not the manufacturer. Not that they won’t be playing this part. In our farm shop we had issues with a supplier trying to price fix. I get why they want to do it but sometimes it can be hard to deal with them.

like you say having crazy discounts the mean nothing and doing a DFS is not ok. Yet they get away with it. Likewise it’s unfair if Davy and Bob are both similar volume buyers from one dealer. They are both silage contractors and in competition with each other but Davy and the dealer don’t get on so he pays more for his kit.

Most trade counters and builders merchants or manufacturers etc have a simple tiered pricing method that you can see if you have an account. It can even get you more trade as the dealer by getting loyalty so that the farmer would buy more to get into the next bracket instead of shopping around.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I always keep a Halservice book in the truck. I use it as a guide to pricing up any bits of machinery at sales.
I probably used to over value stuff as I took the list price as being honest.
These days, Halse of Honiton put a guide to the size of discount you might expect.
This is just one of the reasons why they are probably the best and most recommended firm to deal with.
Save yourself a lot of stress @Drumbroider, and stick Philip's number in your phone.

 

[Barleymow]

Always amused me when buying bearings or electric things , item usually reasonable priced invoice starts at ridiculous price with 90%discount or more ..

 

[lloyd]

Supply and demand would make a difference to how much
something is discounted or not.
I notice the price of potatoes in farm shops went up with panic
buying and are now back down when common sense prevailed.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Always amused me when buying bearings or electric things , item usually reasonable priced invoice starts at ridiculous price with 90%discount or more ..

I can see why they do that. It’s to keep the B&Q crowd away and keep it to big customers who know what they want and don’t ask stupid question taking up lots of time for no profit.

But I have never met anyone who is looking for a combine, baler, dung spreader who is the equivalent of the B&Q buyer. Plus a machinery dealer will sell to any one who walks in with money. Unlike Dingbro etc.