Scene of 'utter devastation' - neglect and death of 84 cattle

[Red Fred]

The comparison between old folks care and animal care is interesting, and over the last year of mum's life, I often heard the expression "We wouldn't be allowed to keep our animals like this!" and it did get us thinking.
In mum's case, she went into hospital a year ago and they accepted that there was nothing further medically they could do.Putting it coldly, had she been a cow, she would have been collected a couple of years ago, but humans are different and must be kept going as long as practically possible.
This leads (or seemed to in mum's case) to a bit of a crunch at the end a few weeks ago.
After being sent home with no further help possible to pass away in her bed in the front room, she actually kept going for nearly a year through her own resilience and in the end they just kept her as comfortable as possible with morphine and left her to it. She couldn't be made to eat or drink, so she effectively was left to fade away over a couple of final days.
I don't have any criticism of the medics, but it brought home the different ways we treat people and animals.
I must confess that on her last night, the nurses looked in and left, I came in from a walk and saw she wasn't moving, but hoped she was just asleep. After 10 minutes, she really wasn't moving and was cold to the touch. At this point, I guess I should have phoned the emergency doctor, but I thought "He'll be hours anyway, so mum would have wanted me to give the animals their supper" so I did, and called the doctor after I got home again 15 minutes later. As it was he didn't arrive until 3am so it wouldn't have made any difference anyway but I was certain she was gone and there was nothing more I could have done.

 

[deleted user 837354]

You seem to be missing the point. Well, 2 points actually, as said many times already, illness creeps up quickly with little time to prepare. In a sensible industry, that makes money, maybe plans could be put in place for every eventuality ( some sort of relieve workforce in times of need, maybe ), but with 16th Century prices I'm afraid a good proportion of UK agriculture is a cottage industry, with one man bands working for a pittance, so shite is going to happen.
Double the price for farm produce, and incidents concerning animal welfare, and farm related accidents would all but disappear.

Why the hell should anything be double the price? The industry produces figures annually which clearly show some people are making money most of the time whilst others cannot.

You already recieve subsidisation and tax and rate relief... yet you want the marketplace to bend around you??

Seriously now. What the actual fudge.

 

[glasshouse]

A few years sgo, these things wouldn't have happened as there would have been at least a part time worker to keep the show on the road or make a call

 

[deleted user 837354]

Seriously now, for how long are you going to live whilst searching for a magic rainbow moaning like fudge about the weather/red tape/costs/prices or whatever the complaint de jour is??

 

[glasshouse]

Why the hell should anything be double the price? The industry produces figures annually which clearly show some people are making money most of the time whilst others cannot.

You already recieve subsidisation and tax and rate relief... yet you want the marketplace to bend around you??

Seriously now. What the actual fudge.

Blah blah blah
Yawn

 

[Happy at it]

I will tell you the biggest problem with the elderly in hospitals.

A lot of them don't want to be interfered with at all. You will find that medicalstaff have to be quite harsh with many of them because they can be very recalcitrant even when they are of sound mind. Others will complain and groan as if they are being tortured violently with even the simplest and most gentle treatments. 'On a scale of 1-10 what is your pain level?' Answer: '10'. Which is almost always a life. I've seen people with pain that is probably a 10- they are fairly easy to spot.

The second biggest problem is their relatives.

Hospitals are not care homes. In many instances, admitting someone to a ward is actually counter-productive. Firstly, you are more likely to catch a bug, second, elderly people in an unfamiliar environment often struggle to do much for themselves without hugely increased risks of falling etc, and third, the longer you lie or sit around being waited on hand and foot, the less able you will become- you lose muscle mass and tone at an astonishing rate by being laid in bed all day and it also places an additional burden on the circulation.

People who are disenfranchised with the NHS but fully qualified do not stay there long- they can earn more money in other sectors of care.

I'm sorry but you have a lot to learn, if someone tells you thier opinion which is based on experience don't tell them otherwise. Like @Tarw Coch s experience, my father received an awful standard of care. If it wasn't for his relatives im certain he wouldnt have made it out hospital.

 

[Red Fred]

I don't think anyone is complaining about our lot, or condoning the cruelty, but it seems to be only fair on the animals too to figure out what is going on here, and why it is happening so often. I spent the last 3 decades in my unshakeable rural idyll where nothing ever went wrong, but a series of simple happenings all at once have made me realise its time to seriously think about all this, and brought home how easy it is to slide.
Maybe this should be in the depression thread but I'm not complaining or looking for sympathy, I am lucky to be living in a semi urban area surrounded by friends and people to help, or just talk to, but I can see that others may not have such support. This isn't an excuse for cruelty, but it surely is good to discuss all this to try to find a reason, as so often the perpetrators do not appear to be "cruel" people in the first instance.

 

[unlacedgecko]

The comparison between old folks care and animal care is interesting, and over the last year of mum's life, I often heard the expression "We wouldn't be allowed to keep our animals like this!" and it did get us thinking.
In mum's case, she went into hospital a year ago and they accepted that there was nothing further medically they could do.Putting it coldly, had she been a cow, she would have been collected a couple of years ago, but humans are different and must be kept going as long as practically possible.
This leads (or seemed to in mum's case) to a bit of a crunch at the end a few weeks ago.
After being sent home with no further help possible to pass away in her bed in the front room, she actually kept going for nearly a year through her own resilience and in the end they just kept her as comfortable as possible with morphine and left her to it. She couldn't be made to eat or drink, so she effectively was left to fade away over a couple of final days.
I don't have any criticism of the medics, but it brought home the different ways we treat people and animals.
I must confess that on her last night, the nurses looked in and left, I came in from a walk and saw she wasn't moving, but hoped she was just asleep. After 10 minutes, she really wasn't moving and was cold to the touch. At this point, I guess I should have phoned the emergency doctor, but I thought "He'll be hours anyway, so mum would have wanted me to give the animals their supper" so I did, and called the doctor after I got home again 15 minutes later. As it was he didn't arrive until 3am so it wouldn't have made any difference anyway but I was certain she was gone and there was nothing more I could have done.

What a God awful experience for you.

I don’t think people should be kept going as long as possible. The treatment of end of life humans in the UK is a disgrace in my opinion. I have no elderly relatives, nor anyone that will become an elderly relative.

I can only hope when my time comes I’ve the physical ability to check myself out...

 

[egbert]

The comparison between old folks care and animal care is interesting, and over the last year of mum's life, I often heard the expression "We wouldn't be allowed to keep our animals like this!" and it did get us thinking.
In mum's case, she went into hospital a year ago and they accepted that there was nothing further medically they could do.Putting it coldly, had she been a cow, she would have been collected a couple of years ago, but humans are different and must be kept going as long as practically possible.
This leads (or seemed to in mum's case) to a bit of a crunch at the end a few weeks ago.
After being sent home with no further help possible to pass away in her bed in the front room, she actually kept going for nearly a year through her own resilience and in the end they just kept her as comfortable as possible with morphine and left her to it. She couldn't be made to eat or drink, so she effectively was left to fade away over a couple of final days.
I don't have any criticism of the medics, but it brought home the different ways we treat people and animals.
I must confess that on her last night, the nurses looked in and left, I came in from a walk and saw she wasn't moving, but hoped she was just asleep. After 10 minutes, she really wasn't moving and was cold to the touch. At this point, I guess I should have phoned the emergency doctor, but I thought "He'll be hours anyway, so mum would have wanted me to give the animals their supper" so I did, and called the doctor after I got home again 15 minutes later. As it was he didn't arrive until 3am so it wouldn't have made any difference anyway but I was certain she was gone and there was nothing more I could have done.

Hats off to you Fred, and your late Mum.

Funnily enough, i have heard several stories over the years regarding stock keeping families and their attitude, (and acceptance of), the ends of lives.
And often, they're reassuringly straight forward and near to the heart.

As my own Pa lay in an impersonal hospital bed, failing fast (a major stroke, after a long slide down), the sister got me on the phone, and said I'd better come in. the end was coming.
I'd been in the night before and said my goodbyes, so I explained that I wasn't likely to get there, as we had hay on the floor.
The sister was perplexed, and tried to re-assert that this was the time to be with him.
I demurred...imagine what he'd have said if he knew...leaving hay to spoil!

After 30 plus years, I'm still quite comfortable with this.
His last words to me - a couple of nights previous- were '....and don't pay too much for Art's sheep!' (an old pal of his had a sale that week, including a hill flock)

 

[7610 super q]

A few years sgo, these things wouldn't have happened as there would have been at least a part time worker to keep the show on the road or make a call

This is what struck me about the case.
Why did an employee not spot things were going wrong ?
Answer.....there were no employees.
Why weren't there any employees ?
Cos there's no f**king money to employ anybody on a small scale.
Another mystery solved by pointing out the blindingly obvious.

If folks don't want to see the blindingly obvious, maybe they should get another job join another forum.

 

[jendan]

Hats off to you Fred, and your late Mum.

Funnily enough, i have heard several stories over the years regarding stock keeping families and their attitude, (and acceptance of), the ends of lives.
And often, they're reassuringly straight forward and near to the heart.

As my own Pa lay in an impersonal hospital bed, failing fast (a major stroke, after a lot slide down), the sister got me on the phone, and said I'd better come in. the end was coming.
I'd been in the night before and said my goodbyes, so I explained that I wasn't likely to get there, as we had hay on the floor.
The sister was perplexed, and tried to re-assert that this was the time to be with him.
I demurred...imagine what he'd have said if he knew...leaving hay to spoil!

After 30 plus years, I'm still quite comfortable with this.
His last words to me - a couple of nights previous- were '....and don't pay too much for Art's sheep!' (an old pal of his had a sale that week, including a hill flock)

Very similar to my own father 12 years ago.I had a real good craik with him on the thursday evening,he was gone early sunday morning.Foremost in his talks were when i was going to sell the last of the hoggs.He thought they should always be gone by the end of March,as he had experienced too many collapses in trade by April.Writing this today,ive just realised that he died on April 22nd.

 

[primmiemoo]

Other professions manage.

No one is forcing anyone to keep stock....

The next time a medic goes for a walk in the sea and doesn't come back, it might be time to ask about the systems of support and assistance within the medical profession.

 

[jendan]

The next time a medic goes for a walk in the sea and doesn't come back, it might be time to ask about the systems of support and assistance within the medical profession.

With an attitude like Ollies,when or if he qualifies,he will soon acquire the nickname of Dr.Death.

 

[holywell farmer]

What I will say for this case for every farmer caught of neglecting animals a lot get away with it, some bigger farms too,

 

[jendan]

What I will say for this case for every farmer caught of neglecting animals a lot get away with it, some bigger farms too,

It doesnt make it better,but i bet if there had been some video cams going last year in the beast from the east on 1000 cow dairy herds trying to spring calve outside in that,it would not have been good viewing.(or even inside come to think of it)

 

[Highland Mule]

When doing human error probability assessments in the industry I work in, they bank on a human error (without any independent checking) to be around 1% (i.e. 1 mistake per hundred actions). There are various reasons why it might be this high (conservative approach in a potentially high-hazard industry, large number of different actions meaning fairly few genuinely routine tasks), but I don't think 1 in 300 for any non-checked records is unreasonable.

The real question is, if they're genuinely business-critical, should you leave them without any independent checking or other corroboration?

From memory, we work in the same industry. You have to work pretty hard with an absence of training etc. to get THERP or HEART to give you 1E-2 as a HEP, and that would be a very conservative assessment. In real life, with training and a competent operator, I’d be aiming to have 1E-3 or better.

Given that this seems to have the potential for business falling apart, I’d say it would benefit from some cross checks - when the passports come back, read them and check they’re right.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

You have to know when your body is telling you its had enough .I got rid of all my animals when mine did , had a break for a few years renting a fair bit out ,I'm back farming again now and loving it but I dont think I will own stock again .just grow crops and graze other peoples stock.

 

[Henarar]

As ever, erudite and consise posts which add much to the discussion.

With attitudes like that you cant help but wonder if the profession actually wants to be taken seriously, or remain a living museum of a bygone cottage industry.... it cant be both.

change the record

 

[Wombat]

From memory, we work in the same industry. You have to work pretty hard with an absence of training etc. to get THERP or HEART to give you 1E-2 as a HEP, and that would be a very conservative assessment. In real life, with training and a competent operator, I’d be aiming to have 1E-3 or better.

Given that this seems to have the potential for business falling apart, I’d say it would benefit from some cross checks - when the passports come back, read them and check they’re right.

I would love the RPA to get that high on their mapping programs, that seems to be 33% of every change they do is wrong. Well it certainly has been in our case

 

[deleted user 837354]

I'm sorry but you have a lot to learn, if someone tells you thier opinion which is based on experience don't tell them otherwise. Like @Tarw Coch s experience, my father received an awful standard of care. If it wasn't for his relatives im certain he wouldnt have made it out hospital.

I speak only as I find. The NHS is an absolutely huge organisation and I have no doubt that parts of are less that ideal.

I have asked dozens of patients if they are satisfied with the care they have recieved over their time and only one had anything that constituted a complaint.