Shortening/simplification of supply chains

[Macsky]

So you don't live in hole and maybe can comprehend humans need more than just food to survive, and they need an awful lot more than just food to live happy healthy lives.

There are many professions other than farming that contribute to our society, They enjoy your cheap food, and you enjoy cheap everything else. I don't think you realise how hard some people work to make an honest living in this country. Do you think everybody is as lucky as you and works for a love of their occupation?

Subsidies were brought in to boost food production in the interest of national food security, which seemed a reasonable thing to do at the time, what they've become in recent years and what purpose they serve today is something else altogether. It just can not work to subsidise the Highlands any higher than it is already.

What I originally said is that I don't want to see even higher Ccags and Llfass paid out to keep covering the shortcomings of farms in the Highlands. Yes subsidies and schemes have kept some farms running, but they've also kept plenty young people out of agriculture, removed any incentive for many businesses to improve their profitability and kept land values at a disproportionately high rate considering the low fertility of land.

Of course I realise stating this on a public forum doesn't make me popular, but many farmers have lived their whole lives depending on subsidy to keep them living comfortably, and I also realise they don't like this fact pointed out to them. I'd like to see a fairer system on a level playing field and one with more opportunity within agriculture for good business men and women to be able to thrive. If my kids want to work in agriculture when they grow up I want more for them than to have to live on government handouts for life.

I think that a bigger issue in the highlands now in regards to accessibility is security of tenure on crofting land. As with subsidies, this was brought about with great intentions, and these were certainly realised initially, but now that food has become so cheap and available, there is very very little croft produce relied upon for sustenance compared with the 19th century.
Much of what was once very productive land is now a sea of rushes or bracken, but you try and get a hold of it! Assignations of crofts, that were supposed to change hands for the value of capital works and improvements carried out on the land, are now sold with planning permission for houses for £40/60/80/100k+!! These are scooped up by southern incomers, who after selling very average houses down south, can afford a very very comfortable retirement up here, slowly breaking down age old communities, and pricing young people out of the housing market to boot.

They should enforce very strict requirements on agricultural activity on crofting land, especially in regards to maintaining soil health and potential productivity, and if these are not maintained then the crofts should be made available to someone else, preferably younger.

 

[delilah]

Other than direct marketing, what else would you suggest for farmers increasing their market share?

I have written/ debated this issue at length, best summarized on this thread
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/tescorona.313517/page-4#post-6894881

That link goes to a letter sent to RBST @Old Tip and 9 other national bodies. Those 10 organisations, working together, need to push for the measures suggested in the post above that one.

You are quite right to raise the issue "Other than direct marketing......"
Direct sales - farm shops, farmers markets etc - is just middle England pleasuring itself.
Measures need to be introduced that reverse the concentration of market share without busy people, preoccupied with the daily struggle of keeping themselves afloat, having to change their habits. The measures called for in the paper submitted to the National food strategy would achieve that.

 

[Top Tip.]

So you don't live in hole and maybe can comprehend humans need more than just food to survive, and they need an awful lot more than just food to live happy healthy lives.

There are many professions other than farming that contribute to our society, They enjoy your cheap food, and you enjoy cheap everything else. I don't think you realise how hard some people work to make an honest living in this country. Do you think everybody is as lucky as you and works for a love of their occupation?

Subsidies were brought in to boost food production in the interest of national food security, which seemed a reasonable thing to do at the time, what they've become in recent years and what purpose they serve today is something else altogether. It just can not work to subsidise the Highlands any higher than it is already.

What I originally said is that I don't want to see even higher Ccags and Llfass paid out to keep covering the shortcomings of farms in the Highlands. Yes subsidies and schemes have kept some farms running, but they've also kept plenty young people out of agriculture, removed any incentive for many businesses to improve their profitability and kept land values at a disproportionately high rate considering the low fertility of land.

Of course I realise stating this on a public forum doesn't make me popular, but many farmers have lived their whole lives depending on subsidy to keep them living comfortably, and I also realise they don't like this fact pointed out to them. I'd like to see a fairer system on a level playing field and one with more opportunity within agriculture for good business men and women to be able to thrive. If my kids want to work in agriculture when they grow up I want more for them than to have to live on government handouts for life.

What comes out in your post is that you want to farm and feel that you have been deprived of that opportunity because of the current system so you want to destroy the current system to enable you to get a start in farming or crofting, I’m afraid it doesn’t work like that . This perception that you have of land values being kept high because of agricultural support is not correct, the reason for the high price of land in this country is down to the tax system and the tax benefits of land ownership. I would be interested to hear what type of system you would bring in to replace the current one which would enable farming and crofting to continue in the Highlands.

 

[Guleesh]

What comes out in your post is that you want to farm and feel that you have been deprived of that opportunity because of the current system so you want to destroy the current system to enable you to get a start in farming or crofting

Wrong, I've made my start in spite of the system. I don't want to destroy anything, I just don't want even more public money to go towards propping up badly run businesses. I would like my kids to have more opportunity than I did.

This perception that you have of land values being kept high because of agricultural support is not correct

Cags in particular, with grants available for every little thing imaginable raises the value of incredibly poor and neglected croft land to land values as high as anywhere in the country - compared to non croft land, The majority of hill land is common grazings and the meagre soumings go with said crofts. I think you'll find that large tracts of non croft land are available for a more realistic land value, more in-line with rest of UK.

I would be interested to hear what type of system you would bring in to replace the current one which would enable farming and crofting to continue in the Highlands

The failed system we call crofting is the biggest factor preventing commercial farming in the Highlands - (and I don't mean subsidy farming) this is clear as almost all reasonable sized farms have been able to operate continually since the introduction of the crofting acts, subjected to the same highs and lows that the rest of the industry has endured UK wide. You'll find the vast majority of usable but abandoned and neglected land is under crofting tenure. I suppose you think crofting has failed because it hasn't received enough government handouts?

The system I would bring in would be to treat the Highlands equally to the rest of the UK, I would give up on desperately trying to preserve a system that failed many decades ago and allow the intelligent and hardworking people living here to create and provide wealth for the country through enterprise and hard work.

You rightly attribute high land value to the tax system, I would simply bring in a UK wide land tax for unused or under utilised ground, that way land values will plummet in less favoured areas to be in line with the income that it can generate, allowing it to be split or joined up into affordable viably sized pieces. If large estate owners or wealthy foreigners still want to buy large tracts of poor quality land in this country they can and that land would still be contributing to the UK economy.

I do think security of personal land ownership is important but land is also a finite resource ultimately belonging to the whole country. A system as laid out above would incentivise all unused and wasted croft owners or tenants to sell or sublet which would resolve the issues @Macsky has highlighted without the undesirability of having government or crofting commission officials having to forcibly remove current sitting owners and tenants, I don't think anybody reasonable wants to see land being seized by government and redistributed as they see fit.

Do you think it's right to have the land value so high as to price the majority of the population off the land?

Do you think it is right to pay even more of the wages of already relatively wealthy land owners from the public purse?

What system would you want to see to enable farming and crofting to continue? The current one certainly isn't sustainable.

 

[Macsky]

Wrong, I've made my start in spite of the system. I don't want to destroy anything, I just don't want even more public money to go towards propping up badly run businesses. I would like my kids to have more opportunity than I did.



Cags in particular, with grants available for every little thing imaginable raises the value of incredibly poor and neglected croft land to land values as high as anywhere in the country - compared to non croft land, The majority of hill land is common grazings and the meagre soumings go with said crofts. I think you'll find that large tracts of non croft land are available for a more realistic land value, more in-line with rest of UK.



The failed system we call crofting is the biggest factor preventing commercial farming in the Highlands - (and I don't mean subsidy farming) this is clear as almost all reasonable sized farms have been able to operate continually since the introduction of the crofting acts, subjected to the same highs and lows that the rest of the industry has endured UK wide. You'll find the vast majority of usable but abandoned and neglected land is under crofting tenure. I suppose you think crofting has failed because it hasn't received enough government handouts?

The system I would bring in would be to treat the Highlands equally to the rest of the UK, I would give up on desperately trying to preserve a system that failed many decades ago and allow the intelligent and hardworking people living here to create and provide wealth for the country through enterprise and hard work.

You rightly attribute high land value to the tax system, I would simply bring in a UK wide land tax for unused or under utilised ground, that way land values will plummet in less favoured areas to be in line with the income that it can generate, allowing it to be split or joined up into affordable viably sized pieces. If large estate owners or wealthy foreigners still want to buy large tracts of poor quality land in this country they can and that land would still be contributing to the UK economy.

I do think security of personal land ownership is important but land is also a finite resource ultimately belonging to the whole country. A system as laid out above would incentivise all unused and wasted croft owners or tenants to sell or sublet which would resolve the issues @Macsky has highlighted without the undesirability of having government or crofting commission officials having to forcibly remove current sitting owners and tenants, I don't think anybody reasonable wants to see land being seized by government and redistributed as they see fit.

Do you think it's right to have the land value so high as to price the majority of the population off the land?

Do you think it is right to pay even more of the wages of already relatively wealthy land owners from the public purse?

What system would you want to see to enable farming and crofting to continue? The current one certainly isn't sustainable.

I don’t think cags raises the value of land at all. I think it is the most under-utilised support mechanism there is! With up to 80% support available to townships, why is every township in the country not kitted out with the best facilities there is? Cattle sheds, top spec handling facilities, access tracks etc.
Some folk will go ahead with work without even bothering to apply as the whole process is so ridiculously complicated, and attitudes in the department are not always that of assistance, depending on who you are dealing with, you’d think the money was coming straight out of their own pension pots!

 

[Guleesh]

I don’t think cags raises the value of land at all. I think it is the most under-utilised support mechanism there is! With up to 80% support available to townships, why is every township in the country not kitted out with the best facilities there is? Cattle sheds, top spec handling facilities, access tracks etc.
Some folk will go ahead with work without even bothering to apply as the whole process is so ridiculously complicated, and attitudes in the department are not always that of assistance, depending on who you are dealing with, you’d think the money was coming straight out of their own pension pots!

The housing grant is a major incentive to many in buying and keeping crofts rather than farms. Plenty of token crofting going on in order to have eligibility for this ridiculously unfair scheme. £35000 towards your house because you have a cow or a dozen sheep but if you work on a fishfarm you can go jump - apply for a council house.

I agree to an extent about complication of grant applications, but there's plenty who have got their heads round it and milk it for all it is worth, and they do have cattle sheds, top spec handling, access tracks and much more.
Good luck to them I say, that is the system as it is presented to them, they follow the rules and reap the rewards.

 

[Macsky]

It’s that scheme that’s let a lot of young local families build and stay in their home communities, as they have been priced completely out of the market as I mentioned before. None of this is black and white, like most major problems in life, they are far from simple, which makes none of the solutions all that simple really either.

 

[Guleesh]

It’s that scheme that’s let a lot of young local families build and stay in their home communities, as they have been priced completely out of the market as I mentioned before. None of this is black and white, like most major problems in life, they are far from simple, which makes none of the solutions all that simple really either.

Council and Housing Association do the same job except more indiscriminately.

Young families have been priced out of the property market across the whole country, it isn't a problem exclusive to crofting townships.

I find it hard to believe you aren't aware of the widespread mis-use of various schemes. I agree it's not simple and I respect your opinion that subsidy could be a force for good if managed more carefully, i agree it definitely could, but I'm sceptical that a fair way to distribute it can ever be found or that it can ever solve the age old problems our little part of the world faces. I don't buy into the idea or assume that new blood and new ideas can't do any better at practicing agriculture here than previous generations.

Personally I would rather strive to improve things and build a more solid business or fail trying, rather that than effectively giving up and beg for more handouts from the UK taxpayer, After years of observing from both sides of this, This is the conclusion I've come to. These are my standards that I set myself for myself and partly as an example to my children. What other people think or how they want to live is their business, I don't know their full circumstance and respect their decisions. I don't really care what people do on an individual basis, but I do have an opinion on how I think things could be better for the majority.

On a different note the thread was about shortening supply chains and I feel that with the help of @Top Tip. I am going off on a tangent.

 

[Macsky]

O

Council and Housing Association do the same job except more indiscriminately.

Young families have been priced out of the property market across the whole country, it isn't a problem exclusive to crofting townships.

I find it hard to believe you aren't aware of the widespread mis-use of various schemes. I agree it's not simple and I respect your opinion that subsidy could be a force for good if managed more carefully, i agree it definitely could, but I'm sceptical that a fair way to distribute it can ever be found or that it can ever solve the age old problems our little part of the world faces. I don't buy into the idea or assume that new blood and new ideas can't do any better at practicing agriculture here than previous generations.

Personally I would rather strive to improve things and build a more solid business or fail trying, rather that than effectively giving up and beg for more handouts from the UK taxpayer, After years of observing from both sides of this, This is the conclusion I've come to. These are my standards that I set myself for myself and partly as an example to my children. What other people think or how they want to live is their business, I don't know their full circumstance and respect their decisions. I don't really care what people do on an individual basis, but I do have an opinion on how I think things could be better for the majority.

On a different note the thread was about shortening supply chains and I feel that with the help of @Top Tip. I am going off on a tangent.

Other than token crofting in order to qualify for building a Croft house, how much other misuse is there?
I’ve looked into martyrdom and it just isn’t for me. ?
One man isn’t likely to change the world, we need to be quite pragmatic in order to get along in this life. I’m still pretty convinced that if subsidies disappeared, then the entire livestock industry on most of the LFA ground in Scotland would go with it. Better trying to influence the direction of these subs, a stronger NFU representation from that sector would be a big help I think.

 

[Guleesh]

O

Other than token crofting in order to qualify for building a Croft house, how much other misuse is there?
I’ve looked into martyrdom and it just isn’t for me. ?
One man isn’t likely to change the world, we need to be quite pragmatic in order to get along in this life. I’m still pretty convinced that if subsidies disappeared, then the entire livestock industry on most of the LFA ground in Scotland would go with it. Better trying to influence the direction of these subs, a stronger NFU representation from that sector would be a big help I think.

Again I'm surprised you're not aware of misuse, no, I'm not going to give every example I know of it on a public forum but i'll gladly point out plenty more when I see you next, if you like?

It's more about wanting to achieve something in life rather merely survive on handouts. I don't think that leads to martyrdom.

I also agree that without any subsidies livestock would disappear on most LFA ground. My solution is to let it go and rebuild it from the bottom up. Your solution seems to be to top it up with more public money. I'm sure you'll find plenty farmers that agree with you but you might struggle to convince the ever more tightly squeezed taxpayers that you expect will fund it.

Larger scale livestock farming in historic crofting areas, particularly sheep, is a relatively new industry compared to the similar practices found on hills in other parts of UK, I don't see it as a heritage particularly worth preserving at all costs. The traditional subsistence farming way of life here had many interesting cultural and agricultural practices which are sadly disappearing, However, in every other part of the world that anybody has ever lived on, these cultural differences have also all but gone. Sad as it may be to see empty hills, If people really can't manage to rear livestock profitably here (I think they can) then they should cease operating. This is how economies continue to function.

This idea that the whole Highlands will be abandoned is nonsense. There's still plenty industries left to keep a population here. If subs are the answer maybe you could explain why there's naff all farming going on in the Highland and Islands as it is?

As for one man changing the world? I've no intention of trying, but I'm not going to spend my life farming purely for subsidies as it will not fulfil me, again it's not my place to judge, and I don't judge or hold it against anybody to make the best of the cards that are dealt to them.

 

[ollie989898]

they pay tax payers cash into the BBC , they splash money about like no tomorrow , hundreds of thousands on individual wages , even a new double cab would be basic wage in that organisation , Dont worry RSPB / NE isnt going to let subs (in some form) go without a fight .

BBC mandatory subscription fee is gonna go. I would hazard a guess their overall viewing figures are declining steadily as well.

 

[Macsky]

Again I'm surprised you're not aware of misuse, no, I'm not going to give every example I know of it on a public forum but i'll gladly point out plenty more when I see you next, if you like?

It's more about wanting to achieve something in life rather merely survive on handouts. I don't think that leads to martyrdom.

I also agree that without any subsidies livestock would disappear on most LFA ground. My solution is to let it go and rebuild it from the bottom up. Your solution seems to be to top it up with more public money. I'm sure you'll find plenty farmers that agree with you but you might struggle to convince the ever more tightly squeezed taxpayers that you expect will fund it.

Larger scale livestock farming in historic crofting areas, particularly sheep, is a relatively new industry compared to the similar practices found on hills in other parts of UK, I don't see it as a heritage particularly worth preserving at all costs. The traditional subsistence farming way of life here had many interesting cultural and agricultural practices which are sadly disappearing, However, in every other part of the world that anybody has ever lived on, these cultural differences have also all but gone. Sad as it may be to see empty hills, If people really can't manage to rear livestock profitably here (I think they can) then they should cease operating. This is how economies continue to function.

This idea that the whole Highlands will be abandoned is nonsense. There's still plenty industries left to keep a population here. If subs are the answer maybe you could explain why there's naff all farming going on in the Highland and Islands as it is?

As for one man changing the world? I've no intention of trying, but I'm not going to spend my life farming purely for subsidies as it will not fulfil me, again it's not my place to judge, and I don't judge or hold it against anybody to make the best of the cards that are dealt to them.

My solution is not to top up support, you’re puting words in my mouth there. I think subsidies are a lifeline in these parts, and a very powerful tool. My solution would be to ensure that the money is targeted as precisely as possible to maintain and promote sustainable (profitable) and efficient production, examples would be incentives towards drainage, liming, break crops/reseeding, handling equipment, animal housing, fencing, water supply, shelter belts, hedges, part time employment of help etc. The bulk of this money would be transferred immediately to the wider economy, keeping local contractors and merchants in business, rather than feathering the nests of the privileged.

You can work hard without subsidies, or you can work hard with subsidies, it’s the effort that counts, you’ll just have achieved a lot more and will have made things a lot easier with them, pride is vanity. Avoiding assistance for the sake of it, and to your own detriment, is martyrdom.

It’s easy enough to look back on the olden days and reminisce on the way things were, but they were the way they were because they needed to be, folk got along because they had to get along, there was a common endeavour - survival! Large scale farming is as old as any other modern day industry here today, and older than crofting in many cases. Sheep might not have been so plentiful, but I’m sure the climate for wintering cattle outdoors, and harvesting winter feed, isn’t quite as favourable as it used to be.

I’m not sure I said that the highlands would be desolated without subsidies, but it would be stripped of its agricultural heritage(which is the vast majority of its heritage), tourism has just been shown to be far more fragile than anyone ever dreamt, fishing markets have disappeared overnight, if you’re not employed by the council(taxpayer funded), there really isn’t much else to make a living from!

I think you unfairly underestimate a lot of hard working people when you imply that they are farming purely to reap subsidy. There are far easier ways, with much less pressure and responsibility, to make a decent living. Bricklayers would qualify under that criteria.

 

[unlacedgecko]

My solution is not to top up support, you’re puting words in my mouth there. I think subsidies are a lifeline in these parts, and a very powerful tool. My solution would be to ensure that the money is targeted as precisely as possible to maintain and promote sustainable (profitable) and efficient production, examples would be incentives towards drainage, liming, break crops/reseeding, handling equipment, animal housing, fencing, water supply, shelter belts, hedges, part time employment of help etc. The bulk of this money would be transferred immediately to the wider economy, keeping local contractors and merchants in business, rather than feathering the nests of the privileged.

You can work hard without subsidies, or you can work hard with subsidies, it’s the effort that counts, you’ll just have achieved a lot more and will have made things a lot easier with them, pride is vanity. Avoiding assistance for the sake of it, and to your own detriment, is martyrdom.

It’s easy enough to look back on the olden days and reminisce on the way things were, but they were the way they were because they needed to be, folk got along because they had to get along, there was a common endeavour - survival! Large scale farming is as old as any other modern day industry here today, and older than crofting in many cases. Sheep might not have been so plentiful, but I’m sure the climate for wintering cattle outdoors, and harvesting winter feed, isn’t quite as favourable as it used to be.

I’m not sure I said that the highlands would be desolated without subsidies, but it would be stripped of its agricultural heritage(which is the vast majority of its heritage), tourism has just been shown to be far more fragile than anyone ever dreamt, fishing markets have disappeared overnight, if you’re not employed by the council(taxpayer funded), there really isn’t much else to make a living from!

I think you unfairly underestimate a lot of hard working people when you imply that they are farming purely to reap subsidy. There are far easier ways, with much less pressure and responsibility, to make a decent living. Bricklayers would qualify under that criteria.

How many bricklayers became unemployed during 2008? How many farmers?

 

[unlacedgecko]

Again I'm surprised you're not aware of misuse, no, I'm not going to give every example I know of it on a public forum but i'll gladly point out plenty more when I see you next, if you like?

It's more about wanting to achieve something in life rather merely survive on handouts. I don't think that leads to martyrdom.

I also agree that without any subsidies livestock would disappear on most LFA ground. My solution is to let it go and rebuild it from the bottom up. Your solution seems to be to top it up with more public money. I'm sure you'll find plenty farmers that agree with you but you might struggle to convince the ever more tightly squeezed taxpayers that you expect will fund it.

Larger scale livestock farming in historic crofting areas, particularly sheep, is a relatively new industry compared to the similar practices found on hills in other parts of UK, I don't see it as a heritage particularly worth preserving at all costs. The traditional subsistence farming way of life here had many interesting cultural and agricultural practices which are sadly disappearing, However, in every other part of the world that anybody has ever lived on, these cultural differences have also all but gone. Sad as it may be to see empty hills, If people really can't manage to rear livestock profitably here (I think they can) then they should cease operating. This is how economies continue to function.

This idea that the whole Highlands will be abandoned is nonsense. There's still plenty industries left to keep a population here. If subs are the answer maybe you could explain why there's naff all farming going on in the Highland and Islands as it is?

As for one man changing the world? I've no intention of trying, but I'm not going to spend my life farming purely for subsidies as it will not fulfil me, again it's not my place to judge, and I don't judge or hold it against anybody to make the best of the cards that are dealt to them.

I think you'll find your views far too heretical for the subsidy claiming forum. Be careful when you go out in public or you'll find yourself tarred and feathered.

 

[Guleesh]

We're not getting anywhere here, i respect your views and opinions and agree with some of them, but i think we view things differently.

I'll claim what i am eligible for, but i won't lie on application forms about what is really happening on the ground and i won't change my circumstance to ensure eligibility for schemes- i reject this idea you have of martyrdom, it's just honesty - something many people value, in fact many people view some crofters in the same league as benefit cheats or disability allowance cheats.

I'd encourage anybody to find ways to improve their businesses profitability, it is possible to make money without subsidy, although i don't yet make a full wage as it's still quite early days for me in terms of growing a business i'm very happy with the profit i make exclusive of subs considering the actual hours that go in. I don't doubt there's some harder working farmers but If somebody with enough land to keep them in full time work is grafting harder than a bricklayer and can't make a living from it maybe it's because they're not doing a good job? - in fact it is because they're not running a good business. If the improvements that you mention you want subsidised are worth undertaking then the extra profit they bring will repay the cost, that's how investments work, it's not fair to have the taxpayer fund private business investments.

Agriculture other than self sufficiency, is business, you are creating something you don't need for others to buy, it's not done as a gift to society its done to make a profit and i still reject the idea that the country should fund bad business. I have no worries if all subsidies disappear, i'm confident of my ability to make a living.

 

[delilah]

You guys wanna talk about the OP ? lol.

 

[unlacedgecko]

You guys wanna talk about the OP ? lol.

Sorry.

My opinion, there's no political will to shorten supply chains. If producers want more value from downstream processing then they need a stake in it.

Well run, profit focussed and we'll supported producer co operatives are the best way to achieve this.

 

[devonbeef]

Subsidies were origanally put in place to encourage a good food supply.The real reason why we still need them now is the majority of food is bought in supermarkets.The supermarkets have been allowed to be the all powerful ones and call the shots.Reducing the price to a level we just can keep going.Only just, but they get evermore gready.We are not all inefficent business people just being totally screwed by a powerful companys.Up to now in my experience the bps money and a like has just been redistrubuted around the rural economy.
Any farmer i think will agree producing food will be valued again one day and supported by government. With the way the climate is changed sooner than you think.We have mowing grass 3" tall it should be 20" tall.World food production is in the ...hit now not in the future,People in charge need to wake up.What do i know i am just a simple farmer.

 

[delilah]

there's no political will to shorten supply chains

I'm sure you're right, but there is - allegedly - a political will to address climate change. We can shorten supply chains by 'disguising it' as an environmental gain. Farmers need something they can get the environmental movement on- board with, as that's where the votes are.

Producer cooperatives - even if UK farmers were able to defy history and make it work - would need to be as big in scale as the supermarkets now are if they were to have clout, which means 30 years of catch-up, to then have businesses that carry all of the environmental damage that we are meant to be addressing.

 

[Top Tip.]

We're not getting anywhere here, i respect your views and opinions and agree with some of them, but i think we view things differently.

I'll claim what i am eligible for, but i won't lie on application forms about what is really happening on the ground and i won't change my circumstance to ensure eligibility for schemes- i reject this idea you have of martyrdom, it's just honesty - something many people value, in fact many people view some crofters in the same league as benefit cheats or disability allowance cheats.

I'd encourage anybody to find ways to improve their businesses profitability, it is possible to make money without subsidy, although i don't yet make a full wage as it's still quite early days for me in terms of growing a business i'm very happy with the profit i make exclusive of subs considering the actual hours that go in. I don't doubt there's some harder working farmers but If somebody with enough land to keep them in full time work is grafting harder than a bricklayer and can't make a living from it maybe it's because they're not doing a good job? - in fact it is because they're not running a good business. If the improvements that you mention you want subsidised are worth undertaking then the extra profit they bring will repay the cost, that's how investments work, it's not fair to have the taxpayer fund private business investments.

Agriculture other than self sufficiency, is business, you are creating something you don't need for others to buy, it's not done as a gift to society its done to make a profit and i still reject the idea that the country should fund bad business. I have no worries if all subsidies disappear, i'm confident of my ability to make a living.

I’ve just managed to catch up with this thread and I would conclude that we will have to agree to disagree,you have strongly held views on the subsidy system which i fundamentally disagree with. I take it that you are in receipt of these subsidies well nobody is forcing you to accept them. If you feel so strongly I challenge you to forgo these subsidies withdraw the SAF form you have recently filled in and let’s see how you get on . Please do show the rest of us how it should be done. Without subsidies we go back to subsistence farming and the whole agricultural supply industry disappears,capital investment stops,no fencing ,no shed building no infrastructure investment at all.