Spring Sown NUM3 mixes for Blackgrass Land

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What mixes are people considering for a six month NUM3 on blackgrass clay land that doesn’t result in a huge biomass problem at the end of August? Looking to drill wheat after with a tine drill - don’t have a disc option. Happy to cultivate as not planning on DD.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

You need ground cover
Late Perennial Ryegrass and White Clover for a start

 

[AlphaBravoPapaSux]

You need ground cover
Late Perennial Ryegrass and White Clover for a start

Or if they are planning to mow the crop and thus have maximum black grass come through and reduce seed bank they won’t want too much ground cover?

Have some ryegrass issues in a few fields here. Going in with vetch, crimson clover, berseem clover, linseed & phacelia (to meet flowering needs). Then planning to cut just before the ryegrass starts flowering and bale residue

 

[yellow belly]

Avoid grasses give bg some space to grow tall enough to cut when it’s in flower

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Avoid grasses give bg some space to grow tall enough to cut when it’s in flower

There idea is to include grasses to choke it out ,

 

[yellow belly]

There idea is to include grasses to choke it out ,

Make it dormant
Force it to seed below cutting height

in my experience bg does not proliferate where no nitrogen is used the seed viability is reduced

plant a grass mix and other grasses have to be controlled in any following crop some of these get through the Normal bg stack and need extra cost
With grass mixes there is also a risk of importing other grass weeds
Rat tail fescue ect

 

[Dave645]

Or if they are planning to mow the crop and thus have maximum black grass come through and reduce seed bank they won’t want too much ground cover?

Have some ryegrass issues in a few fields here. Going in with vetch, crimson clover, berseem clover, linseed & phacelia (to meet flowering needs). Then planning to cut just before the ryegrass starts flowering and bale residue

be careful NUM3 can be cut to control grass but baling it may be a breach. they would argue for topping to deliver the same results but return the plant matter to the land.
if they deem the baling to be a breach you could lose all of the payment on it for that year.

they are more likely try to force chemical control of the grass and not, allow you to, top or cut the num3 cover, yes this has been done to farmers my agronomist walks for.
they deemed the grass to prevalent and forced him to chemically control it.
I would advise you get proper advice about how you should control your ryegrass, also timothy and cocksfoot are not hard grasses to control, and can often outgrow other grasses, which is why they were suggested for blackgrass control.

as for spring sowing this late, of num3, you will have to pray the weather is kind to it. it can be very hit or miss it only takes a few hot dry days went its small to lose it, just like grass. if you can irrigate it, then the risks are far lower.
saying that if the current trend continues then it will be fine.

 

[Mixedupfarmer]

be careful NUM3 can be cut to control grass but baling it may be a breach. they would argue for topping to deliver the same results but return the plant matter to the land.
if they deem the baling to be a breach you could lose all of the payment on it for that year.

they are more likely try to force chemical control of the grass and not, allow you to, top or cut the num3 cover, yes this has been done to farmers my agronomist walks for.
they deemed the grass to prevalent and forced him to chemically control it.
I would advise you get proper advice about how you should control your ryegrass, also timothy and cocksfoot are not hard grasses to control, and can often outgrow other grasses, which is why they were suggested for blackgrass control.

as for spring sowing this late, of num3, you will have to pray the weather is kind to it. it can be very hit or miss it only takes a few hot dry days went its small to lose it, just like grass. if you can irrigate it, then the risks are far lower.
saying that if the current trend continues then it will be fine.

How is baling the cuttings a breach when the "How to " guidance says to remove cuttings where possible?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Think youvneed to read the advice

Remove the cut vegetation, where possible, to help reduce the risk of it smothering the flower species and limit weeds – if it’s impractical to do this, you can finely chop them to spread them as thinly as possible.

 

[Dave645]

How is baling the cuttings a breach when the "How to " guidance says to remove cuttings where possible?

ok the wording for all this stuff is tricky. they have added stuff since i last read it. so, I agree baling would seem to be an option depending on how area plays out in there wording, removing was only as they state remove if it's going to be a problem to the flowering parts of the mix.

ok some quotes from guidance.

You must not do the following on the area of legume fallow once it’s established:

• cut it, except to prevent blackgrass from setting seed or to control other annual grass weeds

Maintaining established areas​

Once the area is established, you need to maintain it by managing it in a way that could reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s aim (described above).

NUM3 allows you to cut the area to prevent blackgrass from setting seed or to control other annual grass weeds.

During the first spring and summer after sowing, you can:

• start cutting as soon as blackgrass starts to produce seed heads
• do follow up cuts as necessary to remove further seed heads

During the second year after sowing, you can control blackgrass by cutting between March and mid- June-May and then leave the area uncut for a period of at least around 5 weeks until early August.  This will help to:

• allow plants to flower for as long as possible
• provide pollen and nectar for insects such as bees, butterflies, hoverflies and moths

Check the area for signs of nesting birds before you cut it – birds, nests and eggs are protected by law, so if you see signs of nesting birds, delay cutting until the birds fledge.

Remove the cut vegetation, where possible, to help reduce the risk of it smothering the flower species and limit weeds – if it’s impractical to do this, you can finely chop them to spread them as thinly as possible.

end quote.

so, the question is what evidence will they want, and will there be anything to bale if you're cutting it so often at the point seed heads are appearing.
and what do they mean by "area"?
the area effected by the grass problem, or the full field? which is the only way you could be baling it?

my interpretation of area is the area that needs to be controlled just like we would do in a wheat crop.
sure if 90% of the field has the problem then you could argue the best solution is cutting it all, but will that be the case?

if it's not, can you cut it all and be inside the guidance? as baling will be tricky on spot areas of control. topping like we do in wheat seems like the best way to meet the guidance and avoid having to remove the residue. note they said remove residue rather than bale it. this option is not intended to be for grazing or fodder, so again while this is a grey area in the wording, i don't think they intended for farmers to be cutting the full field to control patches of grass weeds, but I maybe wrong.

 

[Dave645]

I will quote this section again.

Once the area is established, you need to maintain it by managing it in a way that could reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s aim (described above).

end quote.

This does not shout cut the full field to control patches of problem black grass or other problem grasses.
This shouts, do area control only where needed. Just like you would do in wheat crops.
Yes, if it can be proven that, it required the entire field to be cut, then cut it and bale it, but they I am sure will require some proof this was the case.

as that is not in the basic management requirement of the num3 as do not cut unless needed, is one of the few hard rules.
Like all things take it up with them, regardless of if you think I have it wrong or not, better double checking, than doing something that may put you in breach.

if you do get a definitive answer let us all know.

while I will do patch control I have no intention of trying to cut a bale it full fields, unless the full field is full of black grass. But that’s why I added some Timothy and cocksfoot to try to out compete any that comes up.

 

[Regenerator1]

ok the wording for all this stuff is tricky. they have added stuff since i last read it. so, I agree baling would seem to be an option depending on how area plays out in there wording, removing was only as they state remove if it's going to be a problem to the flowering parts of the mix.

ok some quotes from guidance.

You must not do the following on the area of legume fallow once it’s established:

• cut it, except to prevent blackgrass from setting seed or to control other annual grass weeds

Maintaining established areas​

Once the area is established, you need to maintain it by managing it in a way that could reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s aim (described above).

NUM3 allows you to cut the area to prevent blackgrass from setting seed or to control other annual grass weeds.

During the first spring and summer after sowing, you can:

• start cutting as soon as blackgrass starts to produce seed heads
• do follow up cuts as necessary to remove further seed heads

During the second year after sowing, you can control blackgrass by cutting between March and mid- June-May and then leave the area uncut for a period of at least around 5 weeks until early August.  This will help to:

• allow plants to flower for as long as possible
• provide pollen and nectar for insects such as bees, butterflies, hoverflies and moths

Check the area for signs of nesting birds before you cut it – birds, nests and eggs are protected by law, so if you see signs of nesting birds, delay cutting until the birds fledge.

Remove the cut vegetation, where possible, to help reduce the risk of it smothering the flower species and limit weeds – if it’s impractical to do this, you can finely chop them to spread them as thinly as possible.

end quote.

so, the question is what evidence will they want, and will there be anything to bale if you're cutting it so often at the point seed heads are appearing.
and what do they mean by "area"?
the area effected by the grass problem, or the full field? which is the only way you could be baling it?

my interpretation of area is the area that needs to be controlled just like we would do in a wheat crop.
sure if 90% of the field has the problem then you could argue the best solution is cutting it all, but will that be the case?

if it's not, can you cut it all and be inside the guidance? as baling will be tricky on spot areas of control. topping like we do in wheat seems like the best way to meet the guidance and avoid having to remove the residue. note they said remove residue rather than bale it. this option is not intended to be for grazing or fodder, so again while this is a grey area in the wording, i don't think they intended for farmers to be cutting the full field to control patches of grass weeds, but I maybe wrong.

It is just AB15... you break the rules on inspection (mainly remote sensing) you pay back the money... do it properly you keep the money.. simples...