Deere or Fendt

Bossfarmer · Oct 12, 2019

Alwaysworking said:
30-35sounds low to me.

this hasn’t 10k hours but its price is a long way from 35k....

Fendt 724 PROFI PLUS - Agriaffaires

View 2012 Fendt 724 PROFI PLUS Farm Tractor at 85000 EUR in Ireland | Agriaffaires

www.agriaffaires.co.uk

thats not far off half of 10,000hrs though give it another 4-5 years

Bossfarmer · Oct 12, 2019

Clive said:
I have no idea what the current machine will be worth - when I do I will know what my true cost of ownership has been

my budgets depreciate it at the same rate as the last one - is basically the same machine so in % terms will likely depreciate at similar rate

as you say the last one was pretty good value really hence why I’ve gone with the same again

time will tell you may be right but one thing to consider is 10% depreciation of 140k is more is cash terms than 10% of 110k also in 5 years time there will be no shortage of used fendts on the market

Fragonard · Oct 12, 2019

Clive said:
what matters is cost of the tractor you are trading - don’t confuse it with this “cost to change” rubbish which means nothing

the true cost of your outgoing JD is simply difference between new price paid and used value now plus any R&M cost divided by hours you have done

it’s replacement has no relevance to the cost of your out going machine

Clive, you're out of pocket 60k, not 35k.
You've spent 60k not 35k.
You can dress it up any way you want, it's your money, but you had to spend 60k to change.
Your cost to change is 60k.
Yes, your 2014 724 depreciated by 35k in 5 years.
It's strange that you spend 60 and you say it's cost of ownership is 35.
I must run that past our accountant and see what he says.

Bossfarmer · Oct 12, 2019

Fragonard said:
Clive, you're out of pocket 60k, not 35k.
You've spent 60k not 35k.
You can dress it up any way you want, it's your money, but you had to spend 60k to change.
Your cost to change is 60k.
Yes, your 2014 724 depreciated by 35k in 5 years.
It's strange that you spend 60 and you say it's cost of ownership is 35.
I must run that past our accountant and see what he says.

the way i see it, the cost of ownership to run a like for like 724 fendt has been 60k, the cost to run the previous individual fendt was 35, so 60k is the cost of ownership for the BRAND, 35k is the cost of ownership for the TRACTOR,

To get a fair comparison on brands you would need to run and shift another make for the same again then compare figures

Clive · Oct 12, 2019

Fragonard said:
Clive, you're out of pocket 60k, not 35k.
You've spent 60k not 35k.
You can dress it up any way you want, it's your money, but you had to spend 60k to change.
Your cost to change is 60k.
Yes, your 2014 724 depreciated by 35k in 5 years.
It's strange that you spend 60 and you say it's cost of ownership is 35.
I must run that past our accountant and see what he says.

Whatever! I tend to agre with my account though if yours thinks differently I would sack him!

my old tractor cost 35k depreciation over 5 years that was its cost

I will let you know what the replacement cost me in 5 years' time when I sell it - apparently based on your logic if I didn't replace it all I would make money out of owning it !!

tell me if I had swapped the 724 for a 120k Valtra would my old tractor have only cost 5Kin 5 years despite being sold for 35k less than I bought it for?

I have heard some warped logic in the past but frankly its terrifying to think some people actually run businesses!

Clive · Oct 12, 2019

Bossfarmer said:
the way i see it, the cost of ownership to run a like for like 724 fendt has been 60k, the cost to run the previous individual fendt was 35, so 60k is the cost of ownership for the BRAND, 35k is the cost of ownership for the TRACTOR,

To get a fair comparison on brands you would need to run and shift another make for the same again then compare figures

the old tractor cost 35k -in depreciation, there is no doubt about that at all, its what actually happened

if I stopped farming and didn't replace it my cost will have been 35k over than 5 yr period

what I then did to be able to farm for the next 5 years has no relevance on what HAS happened historically - the costs of that next 5 years can be budgeted today based on the estimated future value and will be known for sure the day I sell that replacement tractor. Whatever a 724 (if a 724 even exists in 5yrs time) costs in the future makes no difference at all to the historical cost of ownership

lloyd · Oct 12, 2019

Someone in the trade will have the figures but
I'm pretty sure that around 2016 Fendt were
heavily discounting so it all depends on the
year you choose to do the deal.
Clive quotes JD depreciation but the example
he uses would have been the less popular
previous series .The present series look to hold value well.
Not all Fendts hold their value ,the depreciation
on the 9 series from new looks horrendous!
Plenty advertised at 60-70 k circa 5000hrs
which must be knocking on 200k new.

Bossfarmer · Oct 12, 2019

lloyd said:
Someone in the trade will have the figures but
I'm pretty sure that around 2016 Fendt were
heavily discounting so it all depends on the
year you choose to do the deal.
Clive quotes JD depreciation but the example
he uses would have been the less popular
previous series .The present series look to hold value well.
Not all Fendts hold their value ,the depreciation
on the 9 series from new looks horrendous!
Plenty advertised at 60-70 k circa 5000hrs
which must be knocking on 200k new.

surely a 9 series fendt would be 170k new not 200?

lloyd · Oct 12, 2019

Bossfarmer said:
surely a 9 series fendt would be 170k new not 200?

Not unless they are cheaper than an 8 series !

lloyd · Oct 12, 2019

Bossfarmer said:
surely a 9 series fendt would be 170k new not 200?

List price of a base 939 in July was 290k

Pheasant Surprise · Oct 12, 2019

lloyd said:
List price of a base 939 in July was 290k

Which is about right at 40% off list. Which is near enough what they (should) discount too.

Fragonard · Oct 13, 2019

Clive said:
Whatever! I tend to agre with my account though if yours thinks differently I would sack him!

my old tractor cost 35k depreciation over 5 years that was its cost

I will let you know what the replacement cost me in 5 years' time when I sell it - apparently based on your logic if I didn't replace it all I would make money out of owning it !!

tell me if I had swapped the 724 for a 120k Valtra would my old tractor have only cost 5Kin 5 years despite being sold for 35k less than I bought it for?

I have heard some warped logic in the past but frankly its terrifying to think some people actually run businesses!

What has happened, is, you've upgraded your tractor, to a 5 year newer model, and you have spent 60k doing so.
If you cashed in your 2014, and put the 80k, in the bank, then, it would only have cost you 35k in depreciation. The FACT is, you've spent the 80k plus an additional 60k to update your tractor.
If my accountant told me, that, that deal cost me only 35k, I'd sack him myself.
You can sugar coat it any way you like, but I'm sorry to have to tell you, you've spent 60k, not 35k.
If you had bought a 120k valtra, the deal would have cost you 40k.

kill · Oct 13, 2019

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Fragonard said:
What has happened, is, you've upgraded your tractor, to a 5 year newer model, and you have spent 60k doing so.
If you cashed in your 2014, and put the 80k, in the bank, then, it would only have cost you 35k in depreciation. The FACT is, you've spent the 80k plus an additional 60k to update your tractor.
If my accountant told me, that, that deal cost me only 35k, I'd sack him myself.
You can sugar coat it any way you like, but I'm sorry to have to tell you, you've spent 60k, not 35k.
If you had bought a 120k valtra, the deal would have cost you 40k.

How can the previous tractor take the inflation rise in the new price as it's depreciation?????
The price rise has to be put against the price of the new one purchased now. End of, as it's the new one that will take it forward for it's depreciation surely as the extra rise in money was on this tractors purchase price.

I know in @Clive 's case he's bought the very same model and make of tractor but most farmers and contractors will increase hp and spec with each upgrade so cost to change in virtually all cases can't ever be mixed up in any way with depreciation as that's a school boy error.

Finn farmer · Oct 13, 2019

Fragonard said:
What has happened, is, you've upgraded your tractor, to a 5 year newer model, and you have spent 60k doing so.
If you cashed in your 2014, and put the 80k, in the bank, then, it would only have cost you 35k in depreciation. The FACT is, you've spent the 80k plus an additional 60k to update your tractor.
If my accountant told me, that, that deal cost me only 35k, I'd sack him myself.
You can sugar coat it any way you like, but I'm sorry to have to tell you, you've spent 60k, not 35k.
If you had bought a 120k valtra, the deal would have cost you 40k.

You're mixing the cost to change and cost of ownership.

Cost of ownership is something you know once you've bought the tractor, used it, and sold it. First Fendts cost was 35k, the new ones cost is still unknown. Cost to change is meaningless and often it's impossible to know the real prices, since the quotes tend to be silly.

Fragonard · Oct 13, 2019

Finn farmer said:
You're mixing the cost to change and cost of ownership.

Cost of ownership is something you know once you've bought the tractor, used it, and sold it. First Fendts cost was 35k, the new ones cost is still unknown. Cost to change is meaningless and often it's impossible to know the real prices, since the quotes tend to be silly.

We may agree to disagree.
When we change machines and the price we make the deal on, is what figure goes on the cheque book at the time of the deal, not any future price.
Cost to change is the figure I'm talking about.
The amount of money that has to change hands at the time of the deal.

Chae1 · Oct 13, 2019

Fragonard said:
We may agree to disagree.
When we change machines and the price we make the deal on, is what figure goes on the cheque book at the time of the deal, not any future price.
Cost to change is the figure I'm talking about.
The amount of money that has to change hands at the time of the deal.

That doesn't matter at all though!

It's a wonder we're still in business. ?

Fragonard · Oct 13, 2019

Chae1 said:
That doesn't matter at all though!

It's a wonder we're still in business. [emoji23]

Well, I've yet to meet a salesman, that gives me a figure, other than the amount of money I've to fork out.
But of course, all the salesmen giving a price to change are peddling snake oil, and deceiving any of us clowns that look for a price to change [emoji42] [emoji42] [emoji42]

NorthEastLad · Oct 13, 2019

Fragonard said:
Well, I've yet to meet a salesman, that gives me a figure, other than the amount of money I've to fork out.
But of course, all the salesmen giving a price to change are peddling snake oil, and deceiving any of us clowns that look for a price to change [emoji42] [emoji42] [emoji42]

What happens if Clive had bough a £100k tractor? Cost to change is only £20k so seems like a good deal, he comes to sell it and it's worth £60k. He then wants to buy another exactly the same tractor at £115k.

Scenario number 2, Clive buys his fendt for £140k. His cost to change is £60k. When he comes to sell it he manages to sell it for £110k, but his new tractor now costs £155k.

Which of these scenarios has actually cost Clive more capital? As in money lost to reinvest?

(Numbers made up as Clive wont know what his ownership costs will be for this Fendt)

Buying a cheaper tractor is just moving the magical cost to change onto the next tractor.

Clive · Oct 13, 2019

Fragonard said:
Well, I've yet to meet a salesman, that gives me a figure, other than the amount of money I've to fork out.
But of course, all the salesmen giving a price to change are peddling snake oil, and deceiving any of us clowns that look for a price to change

the salesman is not running your business or collecting tax from you, he is concerned with just one thing ............. Selling - it's not hard for someone who sells a cheaper brand to the one you are trading to make a deal look better but you are trading DOWN doing so, and the deal will not reflect the true cost of your outgoing tractor at all if you are daft enough to fall for such dumbed down numbers

I posted this earlier in this thread but seems to have been lost on you

Clive said:
Don’t mix up what you pay for any machine with what that machine costs you

very different things and I’m far more interested in the cost of owning / running things than their price tag

Pheasant Surprise · Oct 13, 2019

Every machine (or capital expense) stands on its own for financial calculations based on its whole life cost and depreciation.

Once you start mixing in the capital cost of the replacement purchase you’re on a slippery slope.

The “cost to change” can be engineered to be anything you want, up, down, sideways, anything. It’s a favourite trick that salesman play.

Deere or Fendt

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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