DD on livestock farm

[scholland]

Very much a livestock farm but grow some sb, clover and neeps alongside grass.
Right first my current regime is...
Grass 5 years, spring barley, undersown spring barley.
One crop per year of annual clover mix and neep/swede mix so some fields get this as well. The clover is usually sown between barley crops on light land and the neeps go in after 1st cut silage.
Establishment is plough and power harrow combi.

I have always wanted to try to dd the clover and neeps so I am wondering if I'm doing that should I go a step further and try a barley crop as well.

Questions!
How successful can barley dd into 5 year old grass be? What are main reasons for failure? WHat is the best practice for crop establishment?
Will it be possible to sow barley dd and then follow on with grass to undersow?
Dung, is well rotted cattle dung ok to sow into? Will it do as much lying on the surface?
Am I going to achieve anything by trying dd? Our soil structure and worm population are pretty good with grass in the rotation.
There is an old moore not too far away so may try that next spring to see how we get on.
Sorry for all the beginners questions but I need to figure it out for myself then try convince dad who LOVES ploughing!
Thanks in advance

 

[SilliamWhale]

Its a funny one spring barley. It could be good but you need to tread carefully and you will need to be prepared to experiment and make the odd cock up.

I'd be thinking to try spraying off in the autumn and drilling in the spring (with fert) and also try spraying off in the spring and drilling very late spring (again with fert). You won't know the best technique until you've tried a few things out. But the main things would be it will need warmth and avoid nutrient tie up. My personal advice would be after to roll two or three times after grass.

An easier route could be spray off after first or second cut,drill in a tough brassica (eg kale) and then graze and drill barley into this for a few years and then go back to grass. ie 5 years grass and 2-3 years barley as it will allow you to get the second and third years which could be better crops.

In my experience you can put the muck on anytime however I've started putting it more on growing crops ie late may for spring and march for winter. But pre drilling is generally fine.

Try with some farm saved and cleaned seed and a high rate to start so you don't beat yourself up too much if it goes wrong because the learning curve is steep. I've only done barley into grass once because I have used beans as a pioneer crop but that was 1940's style pasture. It can work though. My experience with insect damage hasn't been significant even though I've not used insecticides - I think this is because you don't go from feast to famine like ploughing.

Make sure the discs on the moore aren't f**ked.

 

[Bill the Bass]

Could he swap the Kale In your scenario to stubble turnips? What is the issue dd'ing into grass with s barley?

Scholland, we run a very similar system and we are considering exactly the same as you at present. We wondered if an Achison grassland farmer type drill would drill cereals too as a cheap and cheerful entry to dd'ing?

 

[scholland]

Its a funny one spring barley. It could be good but you need to tread carefully and you will need to be prepared to experiment and make the odd cock up.

I'd be thinking to try spraying off in the autumn and drilling in the spring (with fert) and also try spraying off in the spring and drilling very late spring (again with fert). You won't know the best technique until you've tried a few things out. But the main things would be it will need warmth and avoid nutrient tie up. My personal advice would be after to roll two or three times after grass.

An easier route could be spray off after first or second cut,drill in a tough brassica (eg kale) and then graze and drill barley into this for a few years and then go back to grass. ie 5 years grass and 2-3 years barley as it will allow you to get the second and third years which could be better crops.

In my experience you can put the muck on anytime however I've started putting it more on growing crops ie late may for spring and march for winter. But pre drilling is generally fine.

Try with some farm saved and cleaned seed and a high rate to start so you don't beat yourself up too much if it goes wrong because the learning curve is steep. I've only done barley into grass once because I have used beans as a pioneer crop but that was 1940's style pasture. It can work though. My experience with insect damage hasn't been significant even though I've not used insecticides - I think this is because you don't go from feast to famine like ploughing.

Make sure the discs on the moore aren't fudgeed.

Thanks for the reply. Any autumn work here could be tricky, spraying then might not work as nothing would be growing!
I have neeps in to be grazed this winter so i could try barley into that field in the spring and try a grass field after first cut with next year's neeps.
Limited arable acres so really don't want total crop failures but i guess if you don't try new things nothing can move forward.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Thanks for the reply. Any autumn work here could be tricky, spraying then might not work as nothing would be growing!
I have neeps in to be grazed this winter so i could try barley into that field in the spring and try a grass field after first cut with next year's neeps.
Limited arable acres so really don't want total crop failures but i guess if you don't try new things nothing can move forward.

If you have limited acres and no drill it may be best to stay as you are

 

[scholland]

If you have limited acres and no drill it may be best to stay as you are

Very possibly your right with the barley but the neeps and clover crops i feel could be done better with dd.

 

[Bill the Bass]

Very possibly your right with the barley but the neeps and clover crops i feel could be done better with dd.

Are the neeps grazed? If so could you go grass for 4-5 years, neeps over winter in last year then into spring barley for 2-3 years (fym on in Autumn if not well composted) then back to grass?

 

[scholland]

Are the neeps grazed? If so could you go grass for 4-5 years, neeps over winter in last year then into spring barley for 2-3 years (fym on in Autumn if not well composted) then back to grass?

Ye i think that will be that experiment with the addition of dd the clover into barley stubble. The neeps acres won't be enough to balance everything but it will let me see if i can make it work.

 

[Bill the Bass]

Ye i think that will be that experiment with the addition of dd the clover into barley stubble. The neeps acres won't be enough to balance everything but it will let me see if i can make it work.

Keep us posted. Pictures?

 

[neilo]

Turnips/swedes DD'ed into grass will work very well (use slug pellets though), as will that ProtoPlus after the roots. The roots are a great soil conditioner and the muck from grazing rooypts in situ will feed the next crop.

Can't comment on the SB, as I still min-till mine after grazed roots, aiming to warm the soil faster for drilling. I suspect they would DD fine here, just not been brave enough to make that leap yet.

 

[Bill the Bass]

Turnips/swedes DD'ed into grass will work very well (use slug pellets though), as will that ProtoPlus after the roots. The roots are a great soil conditioner and the muck from grazing rooypts in situ will feed the next crop.

Can't comment on the SB, as I still min-till mine after grazed roots, aiming to warm the soil faster for drilling. I suspect they would DD fine here, just not been brave enough to make that leap yet.

Am I right I thinking you have a sim-tech drill?

 

[neilo]

Am I right I thinking you have a sim-tech drill?

I do. Had an old Moore originally, but found it didn't work well in wet conditions (2012), with the slot almost sealing around the seed. The Sim-tech creates a bit more tilth, although it also disturbs more soil by doing so, possibly germinating more weed seeds?

Very happy with the Sim-tech, giving maximum flexibility.

 

[scholland]

Sounds like the neep/swede mix and the clover dd will fit into our system very easily but the barley may be more tricky. Will get a look at the old moore near me to see is in decent order then hope to give it a bash next spring.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I've no tilled barley after stubble turnips quite often.

The ground can be quite hard but it surprises you how much it mellows within a month or so of the crop growing. If your structure is decent in the first place it works well. I don't feel the need to warm the soil etc. Plant it in the warmth anyway and its fine

 

[neilo]

I've no tilled barley after stubble turnips quite often.

The ground can be quite hard but it surprises you how much it mellows within a month or so of the crop growing. If your structure is decent in the first place it works well. I don't feel the need to warm the soil etc. Plant it in the warmth anyway and its fine

Is it ever cold in Pembrokeshire?

 

[GTB]

Very interesting thread. Similar situation here. Only got 80 acres mowable here at home farm. Current rotation is five years grass then plough after first cut and sow IR and stubble turnips for grazing October/ November then under sown Spring barley and back to grass.

Sprayed one field off after first cut this year and drilled with a guttler IR and rape. As per opico thread. IR took well but slugs? Got the rape. Now getting cold feet about DDing under sown SB into it in the spring.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

 

[scholland]

Very interesting thread. Similar situation here. Only got 80 acres mowable here at home farm. Current rotation is five years grass then plough after first cut and sow IR and stubble turnips for grazing October/ November then under sown Spring barley and back to grass.

Sprayed one field off after first cut this year and drilled with a guttler IR and rape. As per opico thread. IR took well but slugs? Got the rape. Now getting cold feet about DDing under sown SB into it in the spring.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

I was hoping a disc type direct drill would be more consistent than a guttler/sward rejuvinatot type machine but really don't know! We have grass Harrow and seeder and it can get things to grow no problem as long as their is plenty rain afterwards.
If a disc drill could reliably establish swedes in burnt of grass and clover in burnt of grass or barley stubble I'd be pleased. trying barley erith it would be experimental to see what we could do.
Anymore dd experts want to comment? I'm not sure who to tag incase i tag a "plougher"![emoji1] [emoji1]

 

[SilliamWhale]

Very interesting thread. Similar situation here. Only got 80 acres mowable here at home farm. Current rotation is five years grass then plough after first cut and sow IR and stubble turnips for grazing October/ November then under sown Spring barley and back to grass.

Sprayed one field off after first cut this year and drilled with a guttler IR and rape. As per opico thread. IR took well but slugs? Got the rape. Now getting cold feet about DDing under sown SB into it in the spring.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Go and see Huw Bryn down in Cardigan. He comes on here a little I think but prefers twotter. He's got an aitchison and is doing a good job with no till crops from what I can see. Or come and see me I'm not far away. And visit Neil O too. best thing you can do is get on a few farms of others and take up all their opinion.

The drawback with your grassland establishment (which has taken very well by the way and I wouldn't be too bothered about the lack of rape you have enough grass anyway) is that it can't really do corn. You may as well bang on 5kg/ha or so of pellets each time.

Why do you do a one year IR with rape? Why not just a brassica on its own and then a cereal. For what its worth I think its worth getting 2-3 years out of each cereal plot before going to back to grass.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Is it ever cold in Pembrokeshire?

Yes. 11 months of rain. And 1 month of sun. Sometimes I have to put a jumper on in winter (one day in January)

 

[cubby]

Getting good results with our tine drill here I so plenty of grass kale rape have done some triticale into pasture for pheasants worked well