Does Barnier really represent what national governments want out of a leaving deal or are some of them cursing him?

Ashtree

Member
Johnson sees no-deal as better than surrender

EU demands for a level playing field on state aid would stymie No 10’s ambition to build tech giants to take on the world
James Forsyth

Thursday September 03 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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The chances of a Brexit deal have receded significantly over the summer. Inside No 10, they now think there is only a 30 to 40 per cent chance that there will be an agreement. The sticking point isn’t fish — I’m told that there is a “deal to be done” there — but state aid, the question of how much freedom Britain should have to subsidise companies and industries.

At first, this seems odd. This country has long been sniffy about the idea of “picking winners” and uses state aid relatively rarely. It made up 0.34 per cent of GDP — less than half the EU average of 0.76 per cent according to the European Commission’s State Aid Scoreboard. By contrast, German spending — at 1.45 per cent — was almost double it.


So, what’s the problem? Well, the EU worried that Boris Johnson’s levelling up agenda was code for pumping huge amounts of money into the north of England in industrial subsidies. Consequently, it demanded that Britain carry on following EU state aid rules even after Brexit.
This demand was clearly too much. Even Michel Barnier seemed to accept this, and over the summer there were clear indications that the EU was prepared to give ground on the issue. Instead, Brussels emphasised that it wanted to see what kind of subsidy regime the UK was proposing and assess whether that would maintain the so-called “level playing field”. In other words, check that it didn’t deviate much from the current EU system.
As Barnier has publicly complained, Britain has not done this. There’s a feeling on the EU side that they have moved on state aid, and Britain has not reciprocated.

No 10’s unwillingness to publish a subsidy regime has led to head scratching in Tory circles. Without it, there will be demands for the government to help every time a factory is about to close. It all risks going a bit 1970s, with the state trying to keep the modern-day versions of British Leyland going.
But the real sticking point isn’t about car manufacturing or other traditional industries, but technology. The Johnson government wants to use the power of the state to mould and develop what it sees as the industries of the future. One figure with intimate knowledge of the negotiations and how they link to domestic policy tells me “state aid is critical if you are going to try and shape markets in technology”.
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There is a short-term concern too. There is nervousness in government that a new state aid regime could limit Britain’s ability to deal with Covid and prepare for future pandemics. The fear is that such a regime might limit the government’s ability to pump money into companies offering health tests, for example. But this problem could be solved with a bit of imagination. The EU has already suspended various rules during the Covid crisis and it is not impossible to think that some time-limited pandemic preparedness carve-out could be a part of any deal.
The bigger issue is Britain’s desire to use state aid to build up its own technology sector. The view in Downing Street is that this country needs to develop large technology companies at scale and that requires state involvement.
The concern is that unless the UK can do that, it will end up a technological vassal — reliant on either the United States or China, both of whom are unafraid to use the state to shape these markets.
Just think of the Huawei 5G debacle. As technology advances, there will be more and more cases where — unless there is a domestic supplier — the government will have to decide how comfortable it is depending on a foreign company, often with close links to its government, for the infrastructure that any successful 21st-century state is going to require.
The view in Downing Street is that this ability to use state aid is so important that Britian can’t back down on it. One of those closest to the prime minister is insistent that “no deal is better than compromising on the thing that Brussels is insisting on”.
But the EU views state aid as a key part of the level playing field. If Britain is going to use it to try to spur the creation of domestic technology sectors that can compete on a global level, that has implications for them. This is what makes the impasse unlike other moments when the Brexit talks have seemed doomed only for everything to come right in the end. This time the problem isn’t that the two sides are talking past each other, but that they understand each other too well.
Set against this is the realities of no deal. Covid has laid bare the failings of the British state. Given this, the willingness to put it through the stress test of no deal seems surprising. Indeed, a growing number of cabinet ministers are becoming keener for an agreement, believing that given all the other challenges winter will bring, the government doesn’t need any more problems to deal with. But those around Johnson believe that because the state has already prepared for no deal three times, it should be relatively well set for it.
Then there is the fact that no deal would pose two difficulties for the Union. First, it would highlight the ways in which Northern Ireland is treated differently because of the Irish protocol on Brexit. Second, Nicola Sturgeon would seize on any disruption to argue that this was another reason why Scotland would be better off out of the Union.
Perhaps the strongest argument against leaving without a deal, though, is that it wouldn’t be the end of the matter. Britain and EU economies are so interlinked that there would have to be another go at reaching agreement. The EU could take a hardline approach on border checks to try to force Britain back to the negotiating table.
But those around Johnson are optimistic that if this country can weather the first few months of no deal, then talks might resume in the second half of 2021 and they might be able, from there, to negotiate the Canada-style free trade deal that remains their preferred option.
It is tempting to imagine that all this talk of no deal is just more Brexit theatre; that the table will be kicked over in one last fight with Brussels, and then a deal will be done at the last with both sides claiming victory. But Boris Johnson is adamant on the state aid point.
He sometimes quips that “only three people in government agree with me” on the whole question of how ambitious — or purist — to be on Brexit, but he is convinced of his position. Unless the EU moves further on state aid, he won’t do the deal.
James Forsyth is political editor of The Spectator



Boris Johnson

Boris is adamant on state aid in the context of the trade deal. He was more adamant on the Irish Sea border. Where did that end up?
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
So who is going to blink first? It is getting very close to point of no return. I dont think the average person in the UK is aware of what is really about to happen.
Really? You see, we've been told by many pro-EU types - and the EU itself too - that the EU is an honest and benign organisation that fulfills its international obligations, follows international law and so on and so forth. Believing all this, we are labouring under the idea that we'll either do a deal with EU or we won't; if we do, that deal will happen and all well and good. But, if there is no deal, that what with us and the EU both being members of the WTO, we'll be trading under WTO terms according to the GATT. Isn't this the case, surely you aren't inferring that the EU would renege on these things, are you?

Why aren't we aware of what is 'really' about to happen, is it because we're thick, because we don't have the benefit of pro-EU propaganda 24/7, we don't have crystal balls, or some other reason that afflicts us, whereas the truly enlightened of the ROI do know what the future holds? :unsure:

Boris is adamant on state aid in the context of the trade deal. He was more adamant on the Irish Sea border. Where did that end up?
A better question is 'Where will it end up...?' :)
 

Ashtree

Member
Really? You see, we've been told by many pro-EU types - and the EU itself too - that the EU is an honest and benign organisation that fulfills its international obligations, follows international law and so on and so forth. Believing all this, we are labouring under the idea that we'll either do a deal with EU or we won't; if we do, that deal will happen and all well and good. But, if there is no deal, that what with us and the EU both being members of the WTO, we'll be trading under WTO terms according to the GATT. Isn't this the case, surely you aren't inferring that the EU would renege on these things, are you?

Why aren't we aware of what is 'really' about to happen, is it because we're thick, because we don't have the benefit of pro-EU propaganda 24/7, we don't have crystal balls, or some other reason that afflicts us, whereas the truly enlightened of the ROI do know what the future holds? :unsure:


A better question is 'Where will it end up...?' :)

History teaches us a lot. Not a totally reliable predictor of the future, but nevertheless a strong indicator.
When you have good reliable history data, which is reflective of a definite historic trend over time, then that can be an even better indicator of the near future.
What we have seen from Boris, as a consistent trend and characteristic, is one of over promising, poor delivery of promises made, U turns at the merest sign of pushback and of course a deep seated pathological sense of no regret or guilt at his failure to deliver as promised.
If Boris were to go to Appleby horsefair, he would promise to bring home a world beating stallion (better than Galileo) for £100 or less.
No doubt the pikeys would see him coming, and send him home happy, with a gelded donkey in the box and a £10 grand hole in his pocket.
Safely back in London, Boris would characterise the deal as a tremendous success, and deliver a flurry of fist pumps just to emphasise the fact!
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
History teaches us a lot. Not a totally reliable predictor of the future, but nevertheless a strong indicator.
When you have good reliable history data, which is reflective of a definite historic trend over time, then that can be an even better indicator of the near future.
What we have seen from Boris, as a consistent trend and characteristic, is one of over promising, poor delivery of promises made, U turns at the merest sign of pushback and of course a deep seated pathological sense of no regret or guilt at his failure to deliver as promised.
If Boris were to go to Appleby horsefair, he would promise to bring home a world beating stallion (better than Galileo) for £100 or less.
No doubt the pikeys would see him coming, and send him home happy, with a gelded donkey in the box and a £10 grand hole in his pocket.
Safely back in London, Boris would characterise the deal as a tremendous success, and deliver a flurry of fist pumps just to emphasise the fact!
You started alright, then strayed a bit, then went rather weird, but after that rallied & ended as mere b*llocks.

Back, in the real world, we'll see how things look in a few months, say four. :)
 

Ashtree

Member
You started alright, then strayed a bit, then went rather weird, but after that rallied & ended as mere b*llocks.

Back, in the real world, we'll see how things look in a few months, say four. :)

Ya, you’re probably right. Boris would never have made it all the way back to London with the donkey. He would probably have made a U turn on the M1, rolled over several times, ended up in hospital, and meanwhile the donkey would have made it back to Appleby and the pikeys!!
Three days later, Boris comes first pumping out of a coma, declaring what a brilliant deal he had done!
 

bobk

Member
Location
stafford
Barnier wants to damage the UK.

Only time will tell if that happens. Only one thing is for certain, if the UK can find it's feet without the EU then the UK will look to punish those involved.

Would be very nice to see Germany & France eat humble pie .. I'll throw @Ashtree in there on his own as I doubt all Irish people are THAT bad.
As I said last night , we've got nothing to lose going WTO , and very little to gain adhering to EU rules , financials have covered their bases already
 

Ashtree

Member
Barnier wants to damage the UK.

Only time will tell if that happens. Only one thing is for certain, if the UK can find it's feet without the EU then the UK will look to punish those involved.

Would be very nice to see Germany & France eat humble pie .. I'll throw @Ashtree in there on his own as I doubt all Irish people are THAT bad.

😂😂😂 while you are at it, why not throw in all the leftie liberals, and anybody who may have had a latte in their lives. Seriously dangerous people those! As you constantly rant, “they should be rooted out”! 🤪🤪
 

robs1

Member
Saw today that germany has promised Tesla "whatever they want " for building their factory near Berlin. The EU want to hamstring us by making us stick to "their" rules while they will bend them for their own plans, of course we can complain to the courts that they are breaking the rules of the euro court we have to sign up to will ensure fair play, not.
Can no remainers see they are playing us, pray to god boris stands firm, thank goodness TM has gone.
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
Saw today that germany has promised Tesla "whatever they want " for building their factory near Berlin. The EU want to hamstring us by making us stick to "their" rules while they will bend them for their own plans, of course we can complain to the courts that they are breaking the rules of the euro court we have to sign up to will ensure fair play, not.
Can no remainers see they are playing us, pray to god boris stands firm, thank goodness TM has gone.


You left.
Do you expect the eu to look after your interests?
Good luck.
 

Ashtree

Member
Saw today that germany has promised Tesla "whatever they want " for building their factory near Berlin. The EU want to hamstring us by making us stick to "their" rules while they will bend them for their own plans, of course we can complain to the courts that they are breaking the rules of the euro court we have to sign up to will ensure fair play, not.
Can no remainers see they are playing us, pray to god boris stands firm, thank goodness TM has gone.

But I thought the beating heart of true Brexiteers, was powered by ultra true capitalism, where the state kept its dirty hands out of the way, and the market sorted the winners from the losers. Isn’t it the mega moan of all the leavers in here, that the EU is a protectionist racket, where true capitalism is hamstrung and foiled by government type intervention.
Farming being the prime example. You guys want it the NZ way. No subs. Just let Farmer Giles go on to conquer the world!!!
 

robs1

Member
But I thought the beating heart of true Brexiteers, was powered by ultra true capitalism, where the state kept its dirty hands out of the way, and the market sorted the winners from the losers. Isn’t it the mega moan of all the leavers in here, that the EU is a protectionist racket, where true capitalism is hamstrung and foiled by government type intervention.
Farming being the prime example. You guys want it the NZ way. No subs. Just let Farmer Giles go on to conquer the world!!!
Says the man from the country where it seems from my visits every road and public project is funded by the EU
 

robs1

Member
You don’t have to accept anything...
And neither do we.
Agree and that's why at the minute no deal is likely, but we all know that any deal the EU does is five past midnight on the last day so who knows what will happen
However trade will continue after the French act awkward for a few days at Calais, the bbc and guardian will go into meltdown, stammer will be on the news claiming we need a election while crossing his fingers behind his back praying boris wont agree to one.
A week later the public will realise the world is still turning and the sun still rises and sets each day
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
Agree and that's why at the minute no deal is likely, but we all know that any deal the EU does is five past midnight on the last day so who knows what will happen
However trade will continue after the French act awkward for a few days at Calais, the bbc and guardian will go into meltdown, stammer will be on the news claiming we need a election while crossing his fingers behind his back praying boris wont agree to one.
A week later the public will realise the world is still turning and the sun still rises and sets each day


Maybe.
Haven’t seen a mention of it over here this year (y)
 

bobk

Member
Location
stafford


 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
Saw today that germany has promised Tesla "whatever they want " for building their factory near Berlin. The EU want to hamstring us by making us stick to "their" rules while they will bend them for their own plans, of course we can complain to the courts that they are breaking the rules of the euro court we have to sign up to will ensure fair play, not.
Can no remainers see they are playing us, pray to god boris stands firm, thank goodness TM has gone.
Tesla is hardly going to build a car plant in a country without any obvious market. :scratchhead:
 
The problem is that the EU is rapidly becoming a rowing boat with paddles going in all directions. You can't negotiate with folk like that no matter what anyone says.

Be out on WTO and that will be that. If you ask me Europe has bigger problems facing it. Bickering over energy now, still has a big migration issue and can't do anything about it. The thing for Boris to do would be to say we are going to offer bilateral free trade with anyone who wants to do that (this is allowed under WTO rules) and if someone raises punitive tariffs against the UK he can just respond in kind. Yes, the UK would already be subjected to certain tariffs by other countries, but in many cases this would not matter as the UK is not a particularly big player in those areas (I.e steel exports).
 

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