Molases

[Wood field]

Thread hijack alert

I have some urea molasses that is about 4 years old left in an ibc. Can anyone tell me if it's still safe to feed to cows or will it have been a breeding ground for nasties of some sort?
It's not fizzing (to keep some link to the op!), looks same as when it went in there, and I just wanted to use it up.
Obviously vitamins won't be up to much.

I could ask a rep but suspect they'll just want sell me more.

I’ve fed last years to sheep, also put old stuff on some hay for cows , ours says use within 90 days on the delivery note but the rep says it’s safe

 

[Sunbeam Alpine]

I’ve fed last years to sheep, also put old stuff on some hay for cows , ours says use within 90 days on the delivery note but the rep says it’s safe

I would suggest that you put a pipe in from a compressor (you might want to weigh it down) and blow air through it. That will ensure it's mixed again.

 

[muleman]

This was discussed on another thread not long ago.
Weve had it happen if the liquid feed has stood in the tank over summer till the following winter.
It froths up and blows the lid of the 5 gallon drum.
Will kill a ewe or 2 when it goes like that in my experience.

 

[Wood field]

This was discussed on another thread not long ago.
Weve had it happen if the liquid feed has stood in the tank over summer till the following winter.
It froths up and blows the lid of the 5 gallon drum.
Will kill a ewe or 2 when it goes like that in my experience.

I couldn’t remember who it was that had lost ewes !
We’ve not had any problems with the sheep as yet but it’s certainly not good

 

[Sunbeam Alpine]

This was discussed on another thread not long ago.
Weve had it happen if the liquid feed has stood in the tank over summer till the following winter.
It froths up and blows the lid of the 5 gallon drum.
Will kill a ewe or 2 when it goes like that in my experience.

Urea can drop out of suspension in liquid feeds if they remain unused for a long period. This could possibly account for livestock losses as they get a high dose of urea over a short period.

It was for this reason that I suggested using compressed air to re-mix liquid feed which has been unused for a while.

 

[muleman]

Urea can drop out of suspension in liquid feeds if they remain unused for a long period. This could possibly account for livestock losses as they get a high dose of urea over a short period.

It was for this reason that I suggested using compressed air to re-mix liquid feed which has been unused for a while.

I think this must be what happens, reps dont seem to realise or admit that it happens, i just chuck my old stuff away now or give it to cows, try to not end up with much left overs really.

 

[Wood field]

Urea can drop out of suspension in liquid feeds if they remain unused for a long period. This could possibly account for livestock losses as they get a high dose of urea over a short period.

It was for this reason that I suggested using compressed air to re-mix liquid feed which has been unused for a while.

I get what your saying , but the liquid in my op is only a week old, it replaces some from a month or so back that was also gassing up.
Ironically the easy lamber we have is getting on for 12 months old but doesn’t gas up

 

[muleman]

I get what your saying , but the liquid in my op is only a week old, it replaces some from a month or so back that was also gassing up.
Ironically the easy lamber we have is getting on for 12 months old but doesn’t gas up

A week old to you but could it be last seasons out of the depot?

 

[steveR]

Urea can drop out of suspension in liquid feeds if they remain unused for a long period. This could possibly account for livestock losses as they get a high dose of urea over a short period.

It was for this reason that I suggested using compressed air to re-mix liquid feed which has been unused for a while.

I was told about this years ago, and advised to decant the liquid from one IBC down into another from a height, to get the product mixed. Can also add any other odds and sods like extra mineral I believe, but never tried it...

 

[Wood field]

A week old to you but could it be last seasons out of the depot?

It’s difficult to prove anything really, it’s delivered as part of a round, so you would expect everyone else on that delivery would be having trouble
Just to add it doesn’t froth up when pumped from the tanker to the ibc

 

[Sunbeam Alpine]

I get what your saying , but the liquid in my op is only a week old, it replaces some from a month or so back that was also gassing up.
Ironically the easy lamber we have is getting on for 12 months old but doesn’t gas up

I was referring to the dangers of urea separating out of old liquid feed, not gassing up.

I used to work for one of the larger UK liquid feed companies more than 20 years ago. It happened then as well - but extremely rarely - and I'm afraid I can't remember the cause. I know that we tried to avoid delivering into metal tanks, but I've noted that your experience is with IBC's and smaller drums.

Urea will react with water and break down to release Ammonia and Carbon Dioxide. Maybe this is what is happening.

 

[Wood field]

I was referring to the dangers of urea separating out of old liquid feed, not gassing up.

I used to work for one of the larger UK liquid feed companies more than 20 years ago. It happened then as well - but extremely rarely - and I'm afraid I can't remember the cause. I know that we tried to avoid delivering into metal tanks, but I've noted that your experience is with IBC's and smaller drums.

Urea will react with water and break down to release Ammonia and Carbon Dioxide. Maybe this is what is happening.

That’s a thought !!
The driver said maybe it’s your water , I laughed it off !

 

[muleman]

I had a third of an ibc left from the previous season and used that up before ordering any new and lost a few ewes .....if id put new feed in first and filled the tank and therefore mixed it a bit i would probably have got away with it.
The reps say 'it keeps and safe to use' but it isnt always the case .
It would be urea poisoning i would think.

 

[Wood field]

I had a third of an ibc left from the previous season and used that up before ordering any new and lost a few ewes .....if id put new feed in first and filled the tank and therefore mixed it a bit i would probably have got away with it.
The reps say 'it keeps and safe to use' but it isnt always the case .
It would be urea poisoning i would think.

Think I’ll get a broom handle and give ours a good mixing, failing that I’ll use it to hit the rep

 

[Sunbeam Alpine]

@Wood field - the more I think about it, the more I think that water is your problem. My memory of last week is dodgy, and dredging stuff up from more than 20 years ago is even harder

You need to avoid any "extra" water coming into contact with the liquid feed. This could include washing out tanks and accidentally leaving too much water in, or forgetting to put a top on the tank and rain water getting in.

To achieve a good mix you really need to use a compressor with an airline as you want to mix it up well. Decanting it from one container to another as suggested by @steveR will achieve the same result.

 

[neilo]

@Wood field - the more I think about it, the more I think that water is your problem. My memory of last week is dodgy, and dredging stuff up from more than 20 years ago is even harder

You need to avoid any "extra" water coming into contact with the liquid feed. This could include washing out tanks and accidentally leaving too much water in, or forgetting to put a top on the tank and rain water getting in.

To achieve a good mix you really need to use a compressor with an airline as you want to mix it up well. Decanting it from one container to another as suggested by @steveR will achieve the same result.

Most liquid feeds are about 1/3 water as delivered anyway, so there’s no way a splash left in the bottom of the tank, or which gets in through the small lid on an ibc, is going to matter either way.

 

[Sunbeam Alpine]

Most liquid feeds are about 1/3 water as delivered anyway, so there’s no way a splash left in the bottom of the tank, or which gets in through the small lid on an ibc, is going to matter either way.

You're correct that most liquid feeds contain water.

Urea liquid feed manufacture begins with the production of a urea solution premix. Urea is dissolved in hot water, and various stabilising products and suspension agents are added, which act to "bond" the urea in the premix. This premix is then mixed with molasses to produce the finished liquid feed. The ratio of premix to molasses determines the protein content of the feed.

Adding even quite a small amount of extra water to a finished product can cause the problem described, by breaking down the bonds holding the urea, causing the production of ammonia and cardon dioxide.

 

[Wood field]

You're correct that most liquid feeds contain water.

Urea liquid feed manufacture begins with the production of a urea solution premix. Urea is dissolved in hot water, and various stabilising products and suspension agents are added, which act to "bond" the urea in the premix. This premix is then mixed with molasses to produce the finished liquid feed. The ratio of premix to molasses determines the protein content of the feed.

Adding even quite a small amount of extra water to a finished product can cause the problem described, by breaking down the bonds holding the urea, causing the production of ammonia and cardon dioxide.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this, what I don’t understand is why the liquid isn’t frothing up in the ibc, in my case it’s only when decanted in to drums that have either only had molasses in or were new and bone dry
Only once ( a few years back) did we see a reaction as it was pumped in to the ibc, thankfully the delivery driver reported it back to the company, they sent another 1000ltrs free and that was fine

 

[Sunbeam Alpine]

Thanks for taking the time to explain this, what I don’t understand is why the liquid isn’t frothing up in the ibc, in my case it’s only when decanted in to drums that have either only had molasses in or were new and bone dry
Only once ( a few years back) did we see a reaction as it was pumped in to the ibc, thankfully the delivery driver reported it back to the company, they sent another 1000ltrs free and that was fine

Something is causing the urea in your liquid to become unstable and release either ammonia, carbon dioxide, or both gases. While the most common cause would be additional water as explained earlier, another possibility is that the quality of the urea used is not so good. This is quite possible currently as the availability of urea is severely limited thanks to Putin's adventure in Ukraine.

This doesn't reflect badly on your supplier - at the moment most manufacturers are using whatever feed grade urea they can get their hands on - but it could explain why you're experiencing it now. If urea quality is the cause, you won't be the only one experiencing the problem. Maybe worth asking if other customers in your area are having the same problem.

If the urea is the problem there are products which can overcome this during the manufacturing process, and I would hope that your highlighting this would lead to the manufacturer taking the correct action.

 

[neilo]

Asking the supplier if other customers have experienced any problems won’t tell you much.
This is the same company that had a problem with buckets when they changed the base to maize, but wouldn’t admit it was a problem initially. EVERYONE had a problem with massively increased intakes.