- Location
- Northumberlandia
we all know that but some just dont get it...
ive seen it all Tenant Farmers not far from me paying double there current Farm Rents to grab more land.
Rent Per acre without BPS
- Thread starter westwood
- Start date
ive seen it all Tenant Farmers not far from me paying double there current Farm Rents to grab more land.
Rowland
Member
- Location
- Northeast England
Then next negotiation these two agents have will be the opposite way around. Agents are all pals together, chances are they went to college together and most definitely they see each other at at functions and seminars etc .
Just be aware that they look after there clients but they definitely look after them selves and there company.
Grassman
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
Yes some are just desperate to be a bigger farmer.
- Location
- Northumberlandia
I said that years ago my LL & my LA are all best of buddies & Golfing pals the minute i leave the room
Their professional reputations depend on representing their paying client's wishes. Rent reviews are a regular source of work for them. How often do you do one? Have you got access to comparables? Do you do your own rent reviews? I prefer to fight fire with fire - hire someone who speaks their language to represent my interests. Poachers make the best gamekeepers. Each to their own. I'd would at least engage the TFA to help fight my corner.
Rowland
Member
- Location
- Northeast England
I used to be involved in a rent review every year or so on different bits of land/ farms thankfully not so much these days. I used to use an agent for reviews but kinda knew they gave in a tad to quickly. I used agents that where regarded as quite forceful and without there help over the last 25 years I would be considerably worse off . I’m a great believer in using professional help when needed.
With rent reviews and agents one week they’ll be arguing one way then the next the other way so agent A may get £150 per acre rent for his client then the next have to argue that his farming client shouldn’t pay £150 . The system is broken for farmers.
I posted a thread last year that I was a sick as a chip with things, and I was so am reducing my work load a putting in place plans to semi retire from farming.
OK, but some will have heavy responsibilities on the main tenancy, while a seasons let is a walk in/walk out deal.
I'm renting out a bit for tillage at around £100/acre, simple annual deal.
I'm lucky enough to be getting the BPS, while my man is running his show on - I hope- hard maths.
(It's probably not as simple as that, as he rents quite a bit similar, and might need acreages to maintain critical mass for the operation as a whole)
If I lose my BPS, why would the rent change?
I'm not aware that he's subsidising his operation with his own BPS?
Elsewhere, I'm renting in grass on a similar -long term- seasonal annual deal (both situations have no fence liabilities etc), the difference there is that my livestock IS being propped up by my subs, and the number of stock will likely drop if the tap is turned off.
In that situation, either the rent drops, or my stock levels drop and I no longer need the ground.
I'm sure some keen young chap would step up, although I notice I don't have much competition currently - very old pasture, poor fences. Patient management of native cattle helps.)
Tenancies involve the tenant claiming BPS - the landlord is not "in control" on 15th May so is ineligible to claim. That's a side issue but worth considering as cropping licences are ineligible unless the standing crop is in hand 15th May. No doubt you've thought of that for your annual lets. Grazing licences are easier as the grazier is only making use of the summer growth on the grass. As long as the owner is doing the fencing, providing water, applying the fertiliser etc grazing licences are fine for BPS, despite HMRC testing one in court for IHT purposes recently. I have assumed you're in England but your profile doesn't say otherwise.
Because you claim BPS not the licencee, your tillage fee won't drop unless the market rate drops when your tillage farmer's sub drops away that underpinned their business. As posted earlier, rents/licence rates are set by supply and demand.
lloyd
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
There seems to be an idea that if area subsidies
disappeared that land will be available on the cheap
This will not happen big scale because alot of farmers
have diversified successfully into many things last 20
years so if they see an opportunity will take a punt as
they are already glass half full farmers.
Grass keep joining us was making £100 an acre in 1990
and didn't add up but got let every year to different people
without fail.
Never seems to be a shortage of positive thinkers.
BSE was probably the biggest change to values early 90s
because you had a product that one could hardly sell and
alot of capital was tied up in beef.(no confidence )
Alot less beef now and much much more chicken .
However if that job was ever to suffer similar long sustained
damage then watch out as that's where a lot of grain
goes nowadays.
disappeared that land will be available on the cheap
This will not happen big scale because alot of farmers
have diversified successfully into many things last 20
years so if they see an opportunity will take a punt as
they are already glass half full farmers.
Grass keep joining us was making £100 an acre in 1990
and didn't add up but got let every year to different people
without fail.
Never seems to be a shortage of positive thinkers.
BSE was probably the biggest change to values early 90s
because you had a product that one could hardly sell and
alot of capital was tied up in beef.(no confidence )
Alot less beef now and much much more chicken .
However if that job was ever to suffer similar long sustained
damage then watch out as that's where a lot of grain
goes nowadays.
Last edited:
- Location
- Northumberlandia
Tenant Farmers are pretty much history very quickly if the BPS doesnt get replaced with ELMS or whatever its going to be & your total yearly income
doesnt take a huge hit, its as simple as that.
Plus AHA rents are all decided on the max earning Cap of the Holding & comparable like the Farm in the locality
Remove the BPS then you have removed the earning Cap its should be as simple as that
but it wont be, there is some fighting & tougher times ahead thats the bigger concern
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
Wait till boris tanks the economy and has to raise interest rates and cut subsidies., as thatcher did.There seems to be an idea that if area subsidies
disappeared that land will be available on the cheap
This will not happen big scale because alot of farmers
have diversified successfully into many things last 20
years so if they see an opportunity will take a punt as
they are already glass half full farmers.
Grass keep joining us was making £100 an acre in 1990
and didn't add up but got let every year to different people
without fail.
Never seems to be a shortage of positive thinkers.
BSE was probably the biggest change to values early 90s
because you had a product that one could hardly sell and
alot of capital was tied up in beef.(no confidence )
Alot less beef now and much much more chicken .
However if that job was ever to suffer similar long sustained
damage then watch out as that's where a lot of grain
goes nowadays.
See where the “glass half full” borrowed to the hilt farmers are then
lloyd
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
There are plenty of well established farmers with little
or no borrowing who would take advantage of that situation.
This idea of little or no rents is pie in the sky unless your
half way up an inaccessible mountain.
They may take advantage of the situation by saying they’ll take the land on only as a profit share with no rent. If you are currently an established farms with no borrowing it suggests you don’t like borrowing and don’t want to borrow (and are unlikely to do so having just watched heavily borrowed farmers fold) just for the privilege of paying rent to expand.
lloyd
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
Quite the opposite there are plenty who think
that current rents paid by the heavily borrowed farmers
are excessive but would take the opportunity
if it arose.
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
In 99 to 2005, tenants were being paid to farm by the landlord, about £20/ac
???
Are you suggesting they would suddenly start paying rents that they currently consider are excessive, because the people paying the excessive rent could no longer afford to pay it? I really can’t follow that logic.
lloyd
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
No they would pay rents that are less but doesn't
mean land would be rent free or or next to nothing.
Quite simple logic really.
So rent of £180/a with £80/a BPS is deemed excessive. The logic suggests they will feel £100/a with no BPS is also excessive. So surly the question is how excessive? £20/a? £50/a? £80/a? £100/a?
A couple of big contacting operators leaving an area could drop 7500-10000a onto the local market in a hurry. Supply and demand and all that.
lloyd
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
I think you are missing the point.
If your big contracting operators drop large acreages
through over exposure to borrowed money there are
plenty of established farmers who would have a go at a rent they think
is sensible .
The market price at the time would dictate the rent but can't see
existing or new tenants mopping up ground very cheap over
financially secure owner farmers.
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