Can TM engine fit into MF 1200....

[Wellytrack]

Spring of 1990 a 1200 and Muir Hill 121 were working here on stone carts and dumpers.

The Muirhill was of course cumbersome but the MF was only in its way..

1200 was almost pretty in comparison however.

 

[Simon Chiles]

I found that my JD2140 would outperform the 595 in every way you can dream of by a massive massive margin. Completely different league of tractor and performance.

I replaced the 1200 with a JD 2850. It couldn’t lift the 5 furrow plough so I dropped the last one off. Apart from that it was a far more versatile tractor.

 

[MADFORMASSEY]

Silly question maybe but have you got a 7.5 ltr engine? It’s not like something that folk trip over and they’re far from ‘cheap’. As mentioned a Perkins 1000.6 would be far easier to find

Secondhand TM engines aren't too expensive, there is plenty of them for sale in my country for under 10 grand.

 

[Cowabunga]

I replaced the 1200 with a JD 2850. It couldn’t lift the 5 furrow plough so I dropped the last one off. Apart from that it was a far more versatile tractor.

Yes the JD of that era did not have a great lift capacity either even when specced with the optional Hi Lift Capacity rear end. I had my lighter Agrolux four furrow reversible on my JD6200 and it handled it no bother and performed well but when I changed the plough for the much heavier Overum with disc coulters all round it just could not handle the weight. It would lift it marginally but it couldn't drop it sensibly and it overwhelmed the lower link sensing. Couldn't pull it well either due to the six total inches extra ground and the distance the furrows were shifted sideways by the excellent XL mouldboards.

 

[multi power]

Maybe. Same size tyres on the back but superior radials on the 5445. Same horsepower but more torque on the 5445. 1200 heavy on the front but probably lighter on the back, with a set of weights on the 5445 balancing it out to a more equal footing. Far stronger rear links with massively greater lift capacity on the 5445 plus a powershift so no traction lost when changing down or up in heavy going. Two or four speed PTO compared with 1000 only. You name it and the 5445 has it beat in all but looks and fuel tank capacity.

I honestly think you are looking at these old beasts with rose coloured spectacles. The 1200 would be considered a dull lifeless lump when compared to today's tractors. Especially if you compared it to a 6455 with all the Datatronic traction aids including radar slip control and lower link sensing. I bet a 1990 MF 3090 would run rings around the 1200. Leave it for dust in all conditions.

A 3090 will definitely not grip anything near what a 1200 will

 

[Cowabunga]

A 3090 will definitely not grip anything near what a 1200 will

Depends entirely on the tyres and weight distribution. The 1200 looked a big beast but by today's standards it is not particularly heavy and has a tiny lift capacity and most were sold before 1985 so were on cross-ply tyres originally.
I am sure if you put these two side by side with a full set of weights on the front of the 3090, the 3090 would romp away and pull the same plough just as well. Better, if equipped with working Datatronic radar slip control.
The 1200 would not even lift a plough that the 3090 would play with, so would need a semi-mounted plough but it never had the Datatronic system to manage coordinated lift of the back and front of the plough or for rear plough wheel depth control never mind the slip control like the 3000 series
Neither did the 1200 have Dynashift or even a synchromesh gear change, do it had to stop and restart to change gear. It only had a Multi-power gearbox like a 135.

 

[Henarar]

Well there is only one way to find out.
Same plough same depth and see what happens.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Depends entirely on the tyres and weight distribution. The 1200 looked a big beast but by today's standards it is not particularly heavy and has a tiny lift capacity and most were sold before 1985 so were on cross-ply tyres originally.
I am sure if you put these two side by side with a full set of weights on the front of the 3090, the 3090 would romp away and pull the same plough just as well. Better, if equipped with working Datatronic radar slip control.
The 1200 would not even lift a plough that the 3090 would play with, so would need a semi-mounted plough but it never had the Datatronic system to manage coordinated lift of the back and front of the plough or for rear plough wheel depth control, to slip control like the 3000 series
Neither did the 1200 have Dynashift or even a synchromesh gear change, do it had to stop and restart to change gear. It only had a Multi-power gearbox like a 135.

Don’t forget that the 1200 had a hydraulic diff lock between the clutch and brake pedals. It locked both front and rear diffs simultaneously for true 4 wheel drive. Mine had radial tyres. Coupled with the fact that most of the weight of the tractor was in front or over the front axle gave it tremendous grip. Admittedly it only had top link sensing which was useless on the semi mounted plough as I didn’t use the top link, you just had to feather it on the linkage to manually get some form of draft control for traction. It was also a bit disconcerting if you managed to lift the front axle off the ground on heavy draft work because as the axle rose the cab tipping alarmingly to one side.

 

[Cowabunga]

Don’t forget that the 1200 had a hydraulic diff lock between the clutch and brake pedals. It locked both front and rear diffs simultaneously for true 4 wheel drive. Mine had radial tyres. Coupled with most of the weight of the tractor was in front or over the front axle gave it tremendous grip. Admittedly it only had top link sensing which was useless on the semi mounted plough as I didn’t use the top link, you just had to feather it on the linkage to manually get some form of draft control for traction. It was also a bit disconcerting if you managed to lift the front axle off the ground on heavy draft work because as the axle rose the cab tipping alarmingly to one side.

So do 3000 series have full diff lock on front and back axles and it is automatically engaged and disengaged as the links are raised and lowered should that be desired.
On the 1200, only the engine is mounted in front of the front axle, but so is a set of weights on a 3000 series. The bulk of what you see on the 1200 is just sheet metal. Yes, you have found the major weak point of the 1200 in that it couldn't lift much of a fully mounted plough [or anything vaguely heavy by today's standards] and a semi-mounted lacked depth control due to only top link sensing being available. It also swung the plough when steering, often straining and breaking its lower links. The 3000 series came with all the automatic functions and electronic lower link sensing from the start, with far higher lift capacity, automated functions for the 4wd and diff lock, Datatonic for automated control of semi-mounted implements including trailed machinery draft control, radar slip control that overrode the draft control when necessary and many functions you don't even get on current modern rivals today.

While the 1200 was great in its time. Its time was the mid to late 1970's and its time was over when the far superior 3000 series and larger tractors with far superior versatility and technology were introduced in 1986. In fact its sales about ended when the 2600 range was introduced around '80 to '82 or thereabouts, which were big heavy beasts even though the 2620 and 2640 were only 95 and 110hp respectively. The 1250 was introduced too late and sold, basically, near bugger all so was discontinued. By that time Same and Fiat and others had introduced their far superior four wheel drive tractors and as these took market share it spurred the major UK selling brands to develop their own versions, which killed off the County and Roadless and the 1200's of this world.

As an aside I would have put my Same Tiger6 105 up against an MF 1200 any day of the week on any job with confidence. Lower link sensing, diff lock front and back, a good steering lock for its time and far superior lift capacity. No powershift though but very slick-shifting multi-ratio synchromesh transmission with six well spaced reverse ratios.

 

[fiat 9090]

This reply is completely off topic but a neighbour of mine has a 300 hp Scania with the bonnet and cab off a mf 1200 mounted on it and can be seen doing 50 or 60 miles per hour ,on tractor tax and insurance green diesel ,yes I know totally illegal but you have to admire this lads ingenious idea

 

[bill and bens dad]

Depends entirely on the tyres and weight distribution. The 1200 looked a big beast but by today's standards it is not particularly heavy and has a tiny lift capacity and most were sold before 1985 so were on cross-ply tyres originally.
I am sure if you put these two side by side with a full set of weights on the front of the 3090, the 3090 would romp away and pull the same plough just as well. Better, if equipped with working Datatronic radar slip control.
The 1200 would not even lift a plough that the 3090 would play with, so would need a semi-mounted plough but it never had the Datatronic system to manage coordinated lift of the back and front of the plough or for rear plough wheel depth control never mind the slip control like the 3000 series
Neither did the 1200 have Dynashift or even a synchromesh gear change, do it had to stop and restart to change gear. It only had a Multi-power gearbox like a 135.

you do talk some drivel ex owners have posted how well they grip,so put your money where your mouth is borrow Simon chiles plough (If available) and get ready to eat humble pie, the 1200 would leave your 5445 and a 3090, come on!!

 

[Simon Chiles]

you do talk some drivel ex owners have posted how well they grip,so put your money where your mouth is borrow Simon chiles plough (If available) and get ready to eat humble pie, the 1200 would leave your 5445 and a 3090, come on!!

I sold the DP6 plough 36 years ago and I doubt there are any around. They were very heavy and had a nasty turnover mechanism that threw the weight from one side to the other in a very jerky movement. This was the reason for getting rid of the plough, the 165 drop rods on the 1200 couldn’t take it.

 

[Henarar]

This reply is completely off topic but a neighbour of mine has a 300 hp Scania with the bonnet and cab off a mf 1200 mounted on it and can be seen doing 50 or 60 miles per hour ,on tractor tax and insurance green diesel ,yes I know totally illegal but you have to admire this lads ingenious idea

why do you say its illegal ?
The chap that I talked about earlier in the thread that had a 1200 for pulling a slew around then had an artic unit with a hitch on, on red, tractor tax and got pulled in and let go on his way

 

[michael N123]

Sell the Massey and put the engine in a nice old Ford

 

[Simon Chiles]

So do 3000 series have full diff lock on front and back axles and it is automatically engaged and disengaged as the links are raised and lowered should that be desired.
On the 1200, only the engine is mounted in front of the front axle, but so is a set of weights on a 3000 series. The bulk of what you see on the 1200 is just sheet metal. Yes, you have found the major weak point of the 1200 in that it couldn't lift much of a fully mounted plough [or anything vaguely heavy by today's standards] and a semi-mounted lacked depth control due to only top link sensing being available. It also swung the plough when steering, often straining and breaking its lower links. The 3000 series came with all the automatic functions and electronic lower link sensing from the start, with far higher lift capacity, automated functions for the 4wd and diff lock, Datatonic for automated control of semi-mounted implements including trailed machinery draft control, radar slip control that overrode the draft control when necessary and many functions you don't even get on current modern rivals today.

While the 1200 was great in its time. Its time was the mid to late 1970's and its time was over when the far superior 3000 series and larger tractors with far superior versatility and technology were introduced in 1986. In fact its sales about ended when the 2600 range was introduced around '80 to '82 or thereabouts, which were big heavy beasts even though the 2620 and 2640 were only 95 and 110hp respectively. The 1250 was introduced too late and sold, basically, near bugger all so was discontinued. By that time Same and Fiat and others had introduced their far superior four wheel drive tractors and as these took market share it spurred the major UK selling brands to develop their own versions, which killed off the County and Roadless and the 1200's of this world.

As an aside I would have put my Same Tiger6 105 up against an MF 1200 any day of the week on any job with confidence. Lower link sensing, diff lock front and back, a good steering lock for its time and far superior lift capacity. No powershift though but very slick-shifting multi-ratio synchromesh transmission with six well spaced reverse ratios.

The 1200 front end wasn’t just sheet steel, the radiator surround was a cast iron lump, when you consider the distance in front of the axle the weight would so much more effective than a set of weights that are probably only a third of that distance on a front wheel assist tractor. The equal size wheels also give you an 8% increase in tractive performance over a fwa tractor of the same power and weight. I still agree with you about it being an outdated design, was never built strong enough in the first place and wasn’t very versatile. It’s only forte was the fact that it could pull way above any equivalent tractor of the same power and weight and it could turn on a sixpence.

 

[Henarar]

Sell the Massey and put the engine in a nice old Ford

got to find a nice old ford first, did they make such a thing

 

[bill and bens dad]

Sell the Massey and put the engine in a nice old Ford

Yes Good idea !Where are you (The OP) ? how much do you want for it ?

 

[michael N123]

got to find a nice old ford first, did they make such a thing

I think a TM engine will bolt straight onto a 8210

 

[Henarar]

I think a TM engine will bolt straight onto a 8210

not good enough to be classed as nice

 

[Henarar]

The 1200 front end wasn’t just sheet steel, the radiator surround was a cast iron lump, when you consider the distance in front of the axle the weight would so much more effective than a set of weights that are probably only a third of that distance on a front wheel assist tractor. The equal size wheels also give you an 8% increase in tractive performance over a fwa tractor of the same power and weight. I still agree with you about it being an outdated design, was never built strong enough in the first place and wasn’t very versatile. It’s only forte was the fact that it could pull way above any equivalent tractor of the same power and weight and it could turn on a sixpence.

unless you put them side by side nobody would know.
Ducky talks of putting a set of weights on the 3090 but couldn't a 1200 be specked with PAVT's 4 of them would help out.