Wilder Britain ...

[unlacedgecko]

of course they change, but Humans do have a massive impact in that, we can very easily wipe out entire ecosystems in a very short span of time, I don't believe we should destroy them unless there's a very good reason to aka hunting to live rather then hunting for trophies or kicks.

hunting for trophies or kicks hasn’t wiped out any ecosystems. Sport hunting is what keeps many populations of game alive in Africa. Without the inflated value foreign hunters put on these animals, the natives quickly wipe them out by hunting them to eat (live).

The Role of Hunting in Conserving African Wildlife | PERC

Catherine Semcer's testimony before the U.S. House Natural Resources Committee on the "CECIL Act."

www.perc.org

 

[Lili]

Can anyone give a list of the actual benefits of releasing these apex predators, and I don't need some wishy washy drivel about ' improving ecosystems', attracting tourism, etc
How are they going to improve an ecosystem? Explain propoerly and in detail. Whats the matter with the ecosystem. Why does it need changing? and in whose opinion?
How are they going to benefit tourism? How many people will really want to tramp around in bracken and rushes in the hope of spotting a wolf or a lynx? How will that benefit the local community? The thought of these 'lovely wild animals ' is fine if you live many miles away from the consequences. I often wonder what proportion of paid up members of the RSPB actually go out of their own gardens to look at birds.
Hard facts is what is needed not just some pie in the sky ideas of somebody who sits in an office and likes the thought (and the money) of some rural zoo in what is a grossly overpopulated small island.

 

[ollie989898]

No, things will be very diferent with wolves around

No, it won't. There are huge differences between the landscape as it is today compared to when wolves last lived in the wild in the UK. People who can't see that are being extremely ignorant and pushing a rewilding agenda at the expense of all considerations, meaning such ambitions are doomed to fail.

 

[Longlowdog]

@GeorgeC1 1 ah George, you're still with us and I'm still waiting to hear what you've done, what you have sacrificed, how much you have contributed and how that will impact you personally each and every year going forward? I will (and so will many others) still think you have invested nothing but words until you step up to the dare.
You enjoy the thought of releasing predators not for the fact that there will be predators but because you think it's a poke in the eye to shooters don't you? You casually disregard all the work done by the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust proving with peer reviewed science that hunting is the reason stocks of game birds such as grey partridge exist, that waders breed in the hills, that trout and salmon swim in our rivers. You ignore the fact that without hunting African wildlife would be extinct under the management of corrupt leaders. You are allowing a deliberate bias, fostered by your own intransigent attitude to doing due diligence in case it corrects you to form your opinion and arguments that it is obviously of no worth. No suggestion that refuses to carry the burden of the subsequent actions has merit in a considerate society.

 

[ollie989898]

Can anyone give a list of the actual benefits of releasing these apex predators, and I don't need some wishy washy drivel about ' improving ecosystems', attracting tourism, etc
How are they going to improve an ecosystem? Explain propoerly and in detail. Whats the matter with the ecosystem. Why does it need changing? and in whose opinion?
How are they going to benefit tourism? How many people will really want to tramp around in bracken and rushes in the hope of spotting a wolf or a lynx? How will that benefit the local community? The thought of these 'lovely wild animals ' is fine if you live many miles away from the consequences. I often wonder what proportion of paid up members of the RSPB actually go out of their own gardens to look at birds.
Hard facts is what is needed not just some pie in the sky ideas of somebody who sits in an office and likes the thought (and the money) of some rural zoo in what is a grossly overpopulated small island.

There is no benefit to society that I can see. You aren't going to see these things in the wild. It might make bunny cuddlers feel better but they won't see them or the impact they have. The countryside is a very different place and has adapted to the absence of these species. Releasing them into it now constitutes an experiment on a grand scale.

 

[ollie989898]

Whichever way you examine it, the idea that we should just reintroduce a species that has been missing for hundreds of years is insane. As I have written on other threads, mankind has a spectacularly poor record when it comes to meddling with nature in this way, even if unintentionally. The American signal crayfish, the grey squirrel, the virus that causes myxomatosis, you name it: each have been an ecological disaster whose effects few could have predicted fully.

Re-wilders assert that these apex predators will find ample prey animals to survive upon. Have they actually conducted the research to prove this? What happens if there are extremes of weather or climate (more and more common these days it seems) and their prey animals hugely reduce in number?

In other countries these predators already exist in numbers and they are often considered an extreme nuisance because of their predilection for residing close to humans and scavenging from municipal waste streams. What the hell is natural about a collection of wolves ending up living off a landfill site or predating livestock? Remember that the species kept as livestock today are wholly artificial variants of animals that largely no longer exist in the wild today either. Their survival instincts have been selectively bred out over the course of generations so the idea that a wolf preying on someone's sheep is AOK because 'it's natural' is bullcarp as well. A modern sheep on the side of a hill in Scotland is a million miles away from it's historic descendant that lived on scrub in the deserts of the middle east in 10,000 BC.

If Rewilders want to fuddle with nature they should do it on some uninhabited Island where their bloody experiment cannot affect anyone or anything else.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

But George, that does not happen unless those ‘proper preparations’ are taken by owners of livestock, and at their own not inconsiderable expense. We’ve already got cattle housed 24/7 to protect them from a disease carried by an overprotected, overpopulated icon.
I’m sure the ewe in the German photo appreciated your sentiments, as she lay with her belly ripped open.
We’re also hearing that wolves are taking housed calves in similar fashion. Or bits if them.

Consequences George. Consequences.

I presume you're referring to badgers being overprotected and overpopulated? What do you think would happen to the badger population with wolves around? By the way I agree they are overpopulated and over protected (by man)

 

[ollie989898]

I presume you're referring to badgers being overprotected and overpopulated? What do you think would happen to the badger population with wolves around? By the way I agree they are overpopulated and over protected (by man)

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that wolves routinely predate badgers? You realise, of course, that wolves (and lynx and wild boar which you fellows also seem very keen to release into the wild) all get TB right?

 

[TheShrike]

That is defo Ray Jackson from Bloodsport

 

[MRT]

The woman that swallowed a fly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that wolves routinely predate badgers? You realise, of course, that wolves (and lynx and wild boar which you fellows also seem very keen to release into the wild) all get TB right?

The biggest release that has gone spectacularly wrong was the mink which started to occur in Britain from 1930s onward following the odd escape from mink farms ............ bye, bye the Water Vole and pretty much anything else it can get its claws and teeth in to
Then activists started to take an interest in stopping the fur trade from the early 90s

Animal rights activists are thought to be behind the release of up to 8,000 mink from a farm at Onneley in north Staffordshire.
Mink farmer Len Kelsall, 60, has slammed those responsible as "terrorists", saying that he was "utterly devastated" by the release which occurred shortly before 6am.
Sept 1998

Lot were killed on the roads but it was estimated that several hundred managed to escape in to the wilds

The water vole is Britain's fastest declining mammal, disappearing from 70% of known sites in only seven years between national surveys in the late 1980s and early 1990s. In 1998 there were estimated to be only 875,000 individuals.

In pre-Roman times, the water vole was actually Britain's commonest small mammal. It has been estimated that in the late Iron Age there were 6.7 billion water voles in Britain

Bugger it ...... might as well have wolves roaming around too

 

[melted welly]

of course they change, but Humans do have a massive impact in that, we can very easily wipe out entire ecosystems in a very short span of time, I don't believe we should destroy them unless there's a very good reason to aka hunting to live rather then hunting for trophies or kicks.

Not just humans who can destroy ecosystems quickly.

Argentina brought beavers to Tierra del Fuego. It was not a good idea.

In 1946, the government wanted to create a fur industry. More than 70 years later, it’s clear the ecosystem wasn’t meant to cope with them.

www.google.co.uk

 

[unlacedgecko]

I presume you're referring to badgers being overprotected and overpopulated? What do you think would happen to the badger population with wolves around? By the way I agree they are overpopulated and over protected (by man)

Absolutely fück all.

Wolves aren't going to bother a subterranean dwelling mesopredator.

 

[Ukjay]

no comment on sheep farming economics yet...

Apologies, I wasn't aware I had to.

However, I would say that due to the disparity of everyones own business models, along with the differences of accounting costs, plus reading certain debates on here about what is considered real costs or not, and other sources, it goes without saying that there is a high percentage of businesses that are obviously returning a significant loss and basically are running with a non viable platform for the long term without the benefit of payment schemes unless they can find a way to either reduce significantley their CoP to a far lower level, which is the same as with any other industry - whereby if your input costs are already too high and they keep going north vs your competition, then you will eventually hit the wall and have nowhere to go, unless you can potentially find a way to diversify somewhere / somehow.

To this end, the data I can see only reflects a small percentage of farms inputting data and shows a sector of the industry averaging out at somewhere around 94 - 95% base cost recovered covered in a prior year collectively, which has potentially seen numbers rise to > 100% mark for a time recently. These numbers are obviously being helped through the inclusion of the better performing businesses with the obvious lower CoP etc and more favourable prices vs the other end of the scale.

Putting the line in the sand on the lower performing busines models, it looks to show they have been running around the mid 70's of costs recovered with the returns gained if the information submitted is an accurate refelction on true costs. So extrapolating this further, I would hazard a guess that the industry has a breakdown that shows circa 60% collectively either losing significant amounts of money, or just manafing to break even, and I would propose that some of the lower performing businesses may be be reflecting circa 50% or lower, in ability to cover the real CoP unfortunately.

So I stand by what I said, whereby that I doubt the real issue to the industry is going to be the releasing of a BoP into the area in question, due to the existing issues already present.
I fear the downfall to certain areas within the industry will be more aligned with the potential loss of or a reduction of payment schemes into the industry if that ever happens, real world Brexit Impacts and peoples perceptions of the industry and how they value local produce, and sadly the inabilty of the businesses struggling being able to make the necessary changes needed.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Apologies, I wasn't aware I had to.

However, I would say that due to the disparity of everyones own business models, along with the differences of accounting costs, plus reading certain debates on here about what is considered real costs or not, and other sources, it goes without saying that there is a high percentage of businesses that are obviously returning a significant loss and basically are running with a non viable platform for the long term without the benefit of payment schemes unless they can find a way to either reduce significantley their CoP to a far lower level, which is the same as with any other industry - whereby if your input costs are already too high and they keep going north vs your competition, then you will eventually hit the wall and have nowhere to go, unless you can potentially find a way to diversify somewhere / somehow.

To this end, the data I can see only reflects a small percentage of farms inputting data and shows a sector of the industry averaging out at somewhere around 94 - 95% base cost recovered covered in a prior year collectively, which has potentially seen numbers rise to > 100% mark for a time recently. These numbers are obviously being helped through the inclusion of the better performing businesses with the obvious lower CoP etc and more favourable prices vs the other end of the scale.

Putting the line in the sand on the lower performing busines models, it looks to show they have been running around the mid 70's of costs recovered with the returns gained if the information submitted is an accurate refelction on true costs. So extrapolating this further, I would hazard a guess that the industry has a breakdown that shows circa 60% collectively either losing significant amounts of money, or just manafing to break even, and I would propose that some of the lower performing businesses may be be reflecting circa 50% or lower, in ability to cover the real CoP unfortunately.

So I stand by what I said, whereby that I doubt the real issue to the industry is going to be the releasing of a BoP into the area in question, due to the existing issues already present.
I fear the downfall to certain areas within the industry will be more aligned with the potential loss of or a reduction of payment schemes into the industry if that ever happens, real world Brexit Impacts and peoples perceptions of the industry and how they value local produce, and sadly the inabilty of the businesses struggling being able to make the necessary changes needed.

Awesome. As per my previous post on the matter, I was discussing the release of wolves, which you appear to be in favour of.

So you really think the viability of these businesses would be improved by the release of wolves? Your previous posts seem to imply that farmers should facilitate the release of wolves by watching over flocks with guard dogs by day, and housing them in sheds at night.

The top performing businesses you mention will have low CoP by virtue of large numbers of ewe per labour unit, with grazed forage based systems and very limited (if any) housing. Your sheep farmer solution to wolf release (as per post #100) runs totally counter to this.

To make you aware, it's not just sheep that these wolves snack on. They're rather partial to a bit if horse flesh as well. And aren't above entering barns to get it. I'm sure you'll happily sacrifice your beloved equines on the altar of re-wilding?

 

[Tubbylew]

Anyone who thinks any apex predator is simply going to pass by a field of nice tasty lambs or cattle in easy to catch 5 acre fields, to dig up a b badger to eat is sadly deluded, and has no idea how animals hunt to survive, perhaps the rewilders will have to rip up the enclosure act, and accept livestock guardian dogs as part of life as a consequence. Worlds apart from reality.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Anyone who thinks any apex predator is simply going to pass by a field of nice tasty lambs or cattle in easy to catch 5 acre fields, to dig up a b badger to eat is sadly deluded, and has no idea how animals hunt to survive, perhaps the rewilders will have to rip up the enclosure act, and accept livestock guardian dogs as part of life as a consequence. Worlds apart from reality.

Yes. I'd love to have livestock guardian dogs all over the place.

Not entirely sure how this correlates to improved public access mind you. I suppose the people I caught chasing my lambs this spring (3 separate occasions!) might reconsider if faced with 90lbs of teeth fur and bad attitude.

 

[Tubbylew]

Yes. I'd love to have livestock guardian dogs all over the place.

Not entirely sure how this correlates to improved public access mind you. I suppose the people I caught chasing my lambs this spring (3 separate occasions!) might reconsider if faced with 90lbs of teeth fur and bad attitude.

T'would be a different world.

 

[unlacedgecko]

T'would be a different world.

 

[primmiemoo]

I am compassionate, but it is also Nature, there's a difference between a wolf eating a lamb to survive then a human shooting a lamb for jollies.

Please rethink that, George. I know you're a literal thinker, but you know that nobody in their right mind shoots lambs for jollies.

I don't think you know enough about the truly native cultures of the British Isles to understand what an affront these notions of wilding are. There is far more involved in terms of agenda and sources of money of those who promote wilding than simple reintroduction projects of red squirrel, [edit to add: water vole], and pine marten which are as benign as they come.

Far more.