Wilder Britain ...

[brigadoon]

I was replying to a specific question about the effect of wolves on an ecosystem. I never mentioned the government or moving occupants.

You replied to a post requesting information on the benefits of releasing apex predators into the UK with a specific example which cannot be paralleled in the UK.

Any attempt to enforce a US National Park regime in the UK would be unlikely to go down at all well with those affected - but that is what is needed to realistically minimise human / livestock / predator interactions.

If you want to advocate re-introducing these animals that is fine in my book - but find the space for them first.

 

[sidjon]

I was replying to a specific question about the effect of wolves on an ecosystem. I never mentioned the government or moving occupants.

They didn't, it was changed with the fires 1988 and would have evolved without wolves, it's PR for Yellowstone and more wolf reintroducing. Some of the collar wolves have travelled over 1500miles in Montana or out of the state.

 

[bluebell]

what did these people study and learn at school about the history of the UK, i remember learning that our country had clearance for farming, thousands of years ago? look what metal detectors find in fields to prove human activity farming took place and takes place for hundreds, thousands of years? look at the remote areas of the UK to see signs left of human habitation, farming with abandoned stone buildings and fields cleared by hand of stones to build walls ? now the opposite is in say places such as canada where land has only been cultivated, farmed in the last say 20 years ? dont you wonder when you stand in a corn field or hay field thats just been baled or harvested, how many, many generations before you, also toiled in these same fields, the struggles and work they put into the very soil itself?

 

[Katarina]

They are just like little children, when people don't listen, they feel they have to shout louder !

O'r mynydd i'r mor is still alive and now overseen by RSPB Cymru. It hasn't yet gone away

Yes Or Mynydd ir Mor is still here in so many words but they have down scaled it massively now RSPB is leading the project.
Rewilding Britain was sent packing with there bags last year and there's been a total restructuring of staff with only one person kept on to run the project where there were a number on the staff payroll before the re structuring .
The project has changed completely with no reference to rewilding . The 3.4 million could end up being spent amongst group partners amounting to very little investment on the ground.
RSPB and its partners have realised that they can not proceed with out the support and involvement of the local communities which Rewilding Britain made the big mistake that it could walk all over us. And they are trying to do the same thing again in new target areas. They cant do anything substantial without the support of Landowners and farmers. Thats the bottom line and we should remember that.

We own the land and they dont . Fact.
They Lack common sense . Fact
They always have an agenda. Fact

 

[Danllan]

I think you are missing the point that an animal does not know what is outside it's experience. Until the last moments, the hunted fox believes it will escape -- as it has always done in the past. They certainly have no knowledge of death, until it happens. I have spent a life time observing Nature, sometimes hunting, but also training various species. Part of training is what I call 'realisation'. That is making an animal aware of what it CAN do by arranging events so it can experience success.

Badgers are tough animals and are not killed by even the most aggressive terrier. Predators are specialists if they have the opportunity to be so and digging out a rogue badger (or fox) is a very selective way of dealing with an individual that has acquired a taste for doing something that is harmful to man. Both foxes and badgers will take lambs and some become experts and specialists.

In the meantime, not one word about my proposals to re-introduce the Black Rat.

Not missing the point, not agreeing with it. I've no problem with the killing, but I make sure my stock are slaughtered as humanely as possible and would have no less done for any other creatures.

The black rat wasn't native, nor is the brown; golden eagles, beavers and others are / were.

 

[GeorgeC1]

So ‘population control’ is ok as long as it’s done with a suitably sad look on the shooter‘s face and a press release from an NGO ‘regretting the need for culling’.

But if shooting/hunting is carried out by people enjoying themselves that’s wrong and must be stopped?

I doubt the quarry species cares less what class the people killing them are or whether they happen to be enjoying it.

Most leisure hunting isn't population control, chasing a singular fox for hours by a whole hunt on horses with a whole pack of hounds for example isn't population control nor humane.

Pop control is important but it should be humane.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pop control is important but it should be humane.

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[egbert]

Most leisure hunting isn't population control, chasing a singular fox for hours by a whole hunt on horses with a whole pack of hounds for example isn't population control nor humane.

Pop control is important but it should be humane.

Tell us George.....How much experience of fox hunting have you actually got?
You seem to be very sure you know all about it.

(I give you a tip, if you don't want to look like a bigoted little twonk. Don't bother mentioning the 'whole hunt on horses'*. They're not really relevant to the pointy end of the matter. I think you'll find it's the huntsman and the hounds that would've been the focus of attention)

*but well done for not dropping in the term 'toffs on horses'. That's some progress!

 

[GeorgeC1]

Tell us George.....How much experience of fox hunting have you actually got?
You seem to be very sure you know all about it.

(I give you a tip, if you don't want to look like a bigoted little twonk. Don't bother mentioning the 'whole hunt on horses'*. They're not really relevant to the pointy end of the matter. I think you'll find it's the huntsman and the hounds that would've been the focus of attention)

*but well done for not dropping in the term 'toffs on horses'. That's some progress!

I used to be a groom at a yard which had Hunts horses.

There was some proper toffs though that owned the horses lol.

 

[matthew]

I used to be a groom at a yard which had Hunts horses.

There was some proper toffs though that owned the horses lol.

That may be true in the Midlands, with the more famous hunts, but in the hills, and moorland, the followers are more of a farmers' hunt. And population control ahead of lambing etc. is the aim.

 

[Raider112]

Most leisure hunting isn't population control, chasing a singular fox for hours by a whole hunt on horses with a whole pack of hounds for example isn't population control nor humane.

Pop control is important but it should be humane.

I would argue that it's both population control and humane, numbers are kept down and the old and the weak (which are the ones that cause the problems) are caught while the young and fit tend to live another day. Another plus is that you can get the hunt to follow the scent of a rogue fox from wherever it's doing the damage and be sure you are catching the culprit. It's humane because every fox either escapes or is killed instantly.
Control by shooting is fine as long as you make a clean kill but that's not always the case so it's less humane. And with shooting you can kill half a dozen foxes but still not get the one causing the problems.
To add, I'm not one bit interested in hunting and I have a similar opinion to you about the toffs and have had bad experiences with them but they are few and far between on most hunts, which tend to be followed by normal countrymen and women.

 

[roscoe erf]

Looking at that, I think it makes sense to embrace something that could enhance income. Offering viewing of eagles tied to holiday cottages could be an earner

I cant see that being a vote winner

 

[egbert]

I used to be a groom at a yard which had Hunts horses.

There was some proper toffs though that owned the horses lol.

ah...so you watched people go off hunting.
I can see how that would illuminate you.

(perhaps the toffs weren't very nice to you, and thats where all your issues with them originate)

Let us know when you want to talk about stuff you do know about. Chump

 

[Y Fan Wen]

I would argue that it's both population control and humane, numbers are kept down and the old and the weak (which are the ones that cause the problems) are caught while the young and fit tend to live another day. Another plus is that you can get the hunt to follow the scent of a rogue fox from wherever it's doing the damage and be sure you are catching the culprit. It's humane because every fox either escapes or is killed instantly.
Control by shooting is fine as long as you make a clean kill but that's not always the case so it's less humane. And with shooting you can kill half a dozen foxes but still not get the one causing the problems.
To add, I'm not one bit interested in hunting and I have a similar opinion to you about the toffs and have had bad experiences with them but they are few and far between on most hunts, which tend to be followed by normal countrymen and women.

I have the impression that these new high tech night sights (infra red?) are having a big effect on the population round here.
Presumably no lights mean that they don't know someone is after them?

 

[neilo]

I used to be a groom at a yard which had Hunts horses.

There was some proper toffs though that owned the horses lol.

Given you took the money for that job, presumably you appreciate the number of people that have their wages paid by those ‘toffs’?

 

[GeorgeC1]

I would argue that it's both population control and humane, numbers are kept down and the old and the weak (which are the ones that cause the problems) are caught while the young and fit tend to live another day. Another plus is that you can get the hunt to follow the scent of a rogue fox from wherever it's doing the damage and be sure you are catching the culprit. It's humane because every fox either escapes or is killed instantly.
Control by shooting is fine as long as you make a clean kill but that's not always the case so it's less humane. And with shooting you can kill half a dozen foxes but still not get the one causing the problems.
To add, I'm not one bit interested in hunting and I have a similar opinion to you about the toffs and have had bad experiences with them but they are few and far between on most hunts, which tend to be followed by normal countrymen and women.

I've seen Foxes ripped to pieces by dogs, aint pretty.

Given you took the money for that job, presumably you appreciate the number of people that have their wages paid by those ‘toffs’?

Barely wages, for the hours I worked the hourly rate was awful, £140 for 6 days a week 8am to 6:30pm cash in hand.

Didn't stay in that job for long

 

[Dry Rot]

I've seen Foxes ripped to pieces by dogs, aint pretty.

Have you ever been in a bad car accident? You don't feel a thing at the time. It may not be pretty, but is there any evidence that a fox being killed by a pack of hounds is less humane than a natural death -- which would be by old age, disease, starvation, or physical injury?

 

[GeorgeC1]

Have you ever been in a bad car accident? You don't feel a thing at the time. It may not be pretty, but is there any evidence that a fox being killed by a pack of hounds is less humane than a natural death -- which would be by old age, disease, starvation, or physical injury?

The difference being is that we inflict it on them, if possible it should be humane.

 

[ollie989898]

The difference being is that we inflict it on them, if possible it should be humane.

Shooting unfortunately isn't practical in all areas, flushing them out with dogs and then shooting them works well. Bulk of the time the fox has gone underground anyway.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Humans have evolved as hunters just like dogs and wolves. It's very difficult to switch off an instinct. And no, being caught by a larger hungry animal can't be much fun but is what happens naturally. A fox being caught by a pack of hounds isn't that different to an impala feeding a pack of African hunting dogs. Those of us involved with livestock have an understanding of these natural events even if we don't like some of them, (fox taking lamb, bad; terrier catching rat, good).

It's the divorce of food production from normal suburban life that causes everyone so many problems. Animals become lovely furry humanoid accessories which mustn't be harmed for fear of upsetting someone who doesn't know the difference between grass and green wheat, but happily buys something shrink wrapped from the meat aisle in the supermarket without a second's thought as to how that was treated or where it even came from.

So I don't think humans hunting for pleasure or animals suffering in the wild are particularly relevant to this discussion.